Damn abortion protesters

The BBQ Pit
462

A few things. First:

Thank you. I didn’t want that to get lost, and it’s an assertion I agree with. When a woman chooses to have an abortion, she is taking responsibility for her actions. Does anyone here actually believe that having an abortion is no big deal, and the woman who has one just skips off and continues life as usual afterward? It’s a painful procedure, and it’s a horrible choice to have to make. Most women are very aware that they are terminating a life, and most of them grieve after doing so. Our bodies are built to bring life into the world; an abrupt ending of that, however necessary we view it to be, is still traumatic. Do any anti choice people believe they are telling her anything she hasn’t already said to herself? Of course not. It’s a decision she reached after taking careful consideration of both sides of the argument and weighing the consequences. That’s what taking responsibility for your actions is. Making decisions then accepting the consequences based on those decisions.

That’s fine. You’re allowed to believe that. You’re also allowed to believe Elvis is alive and bringing peanut butter and banana sandwiches for the rapture. What you’re not allowed to do is force another citizen of this country to live according to your belief structure. I don’t disagree with you that abortion is a bad thing. Just that it’s not up to me or you as to whether or not a woman has one.

No, we’re not. Canada’s north, Mexico’s south, countries over the oceans both east and west. You are free to go live elsewhere if you don’t like the rules here. As the pubbies are so fond of saying. And, your slavery comparison has been debunked several times. Clinging to it for dear life makes you appear willfully ignorant.

463

Actually, I think abortion is legal in Canada, but illegal in Mexico. It’s also illegal in Ireland and I’m pretty sure up until recently most forms of birth control were also illegal, as was divorce.

I’ll also third the idea that abortion is sometimes the most responsible choice once a woman has become pregnant. Using an effective method of birth control. It occurred to me after I posted this morning that making hormonal birth control illegal because it has the potential to increase abortions is likely to make deliberate abortions more common by relegating women to less effective birth control. I use the word “deliberate” to distinguish between an abortion which occurs when a woman goes to a doctor and asks to have her pregnancy ended and those which occur when a fertilized egg doesn’t implant because a woman is using hormonal birth control. It looks like a case of the good old law of unintended consequences to me.

CJ

464

thank you, Maureen .

I had my abortion in 2000-and sometimes I am visited by a ghost child in my head. He or she would be 5 now, in kindergarten and thriving, I imagine (my other 3 are, so I figure the odds would have been with this one). But would I even be here to see that child thrive?

But that child is not here and s/he is not here because of a decision I made–with my husband’s input. I make no excuses for what I did. I looked at my sisters, both of whom are dead now(one at 42, the other at 46) from diabetes. I looked at my hx of gestastional diabetes–my last pregnancy was in the “high risk” category d/t GDM. I looked at the needs of my family and my own needs. And I said, “that risk is too high for me.” After my abortion, I tipped into a devastating depression that I am just now getting “over”. Yes, it is exquisitely painful when my youngest asks me for a lil brother or sister. I do not speak for all women here who ahve had abortions-some do make a clear eyed decision and move on.
Muad
Yes-I realize that having had an abortion makes me a “murderer” in your eyes.
Do you think that with the grief and mental health issues, along with other health issues (I have auto-immune problems) that I care for your opinion one iota?
Demonize the women who face this choice all you want–be glad that you never have to make it.

You will live your lfe and you will know women who have had abortions–I bet you know some right now, they just haven’t made it public. You can keep your opinion and your deeply held convictions. That is your right and I concur with the upholding of that right.

But you do not have the right to enforce your opinion on me or any other female.

You know, we actually share the same “premise” here (not sure of the correct word to use)–we both want to control aspects of life–we differ in the focus of that control. There is no middle ground here-ironic that we should both have the same impetus and yet be unable to reach mutual grounds.

I think this is what the courts wrestle with–and there is no one answer that fits for all scenarios–that is my biggest difficulty with your POV.
And whoever made the claim that the pro-choice folks are “frothing” here is civillyinvited by me to go fuck themselves.

465

That strawman of yours was already … ehm … turned into cheap tobacco right here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6030157&postcount=392

466

Right. Shall I e-mail you my home address then so you can imprison me for the next 9 months? You see, I have had sex within the last week, and for all you know the birth control method I use may prevent implantation under some circumstance. Even I’m not sure whether it does or not, although from what I know of how it works, it follows logically that it might.
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Only if you were determined to get an abortion.

The situation would and problems would be no different than those for a suicidal being held against his will in a hospital.

  1. I have not called you a murderer and I do not think that you are one. A murderer realizes what he is doing, you do not.

  2. No more a slave-driver than a judge that sentances anyone else to prison or into a hospital or to do community service.

If I was aware of it, quite possibly.

467

As my father the cop is quite fond of saying: “Ignorance (of the law) is no excuse.”

468

Correct.

Yes, just as we would lock up a potential suicide. I see this as no different from a mother refusing to feed her baby.

I don’t know. That is an interesting question.

I don’t know. That is something that will have to be worked out by the insurance companies.

[/quote]

Of course not. Would you convict a three-year old of murder? This is not even murder, it is an accidental death.

There are many scientists and philosophers who would disagree with that.

469

Alright. What would be the potential charge for the father of said aborted fetus who was aware and approved or assisted financially or otherwise with said abortion?

470

I am not insisting that you remain celibate for the rest of your life. I am saying that you must take responsibility for the risks you take. Now if you absolutely, positively never ever wanted to have a child then I would recommend never having sex again. Or, at least, vaginal sex.

I do very much care for your health and welfare. If I did not I would not support abortion in the event of a threatened mothers life.

How have I been hypocritical?

I would have done no such thing. Only if there were reason for suspicion that she were having abortions every time would something like that become a possibility.

Of course they are not. They’re lives were in danger.

It would be a little difficult to get pregnant from oral.

471

Abortion is a hell of a lot less harmful to the physical health of a woman that continuing a pregnancy is.

You wanna save fetuses? Fine, save them. You’ll just have to do without the help of unwilling women, because you don’t get to tell us that we have to dedicate our bodies to your cause.

472

I don’t know what pisses me off the most-the way you calmly advocate what equates to reproductive prison for women, or the way you condescendingly tell us that “oh, you don’t realize it, you just don’t understand.” Way to be respectful of women.

Oh, and don’t tell us in one breath that you DO care about women, and do respect their health, but don’t care about their uteruses (uteri?), just the fetus. Because my uterus IS a part of me-if it’s in danger, so am I, snookums.

473

I have. Several times.

But it would have woken up. Just as a person under anesthesia will wake up. Therefore it is murder.

So you would have no problem with euthanizing everyone in a coma?

Not if there is a chance that they will wake up. An embryo will develop brains and become aware.

Irrelevant. The point is that they are both human, and just as during slavery, human-rights are being denied to one.

Apples and oranges. If he had sown them on a salt plain then they would never have sprouted into seedlings. In my case the hoodlums would have been punished far more severely because they had destroyed the farmers crop for the year, those destroying his profits for the year. Sowing on a salt plain, those profits would never have come.

And that is where we disagree, and that is what all of my arguments are based upon.

Sex does not cause the destruction of fertilized eggs. Disease, errors in transcription or just plain bad luck causes the death of those fertilized eggs. Just as driving a car does not accidents, drunk driving, not paying attention and blown tires cause them.

Wouldn’t it be a good way to prevent more deaths by outlawing cars, electricity and natural gas? How many people die each year from them? Don’t be silly.

[quoteI’d love to see the test that can discriminate between an ectopic pregnancy and, just as an example, an IVF zygote, or a zygote implanted in a mother who will die if the pregnancy is not immediately terminated and one who will commit suicide rather than bear the child.
[/quote]
None of that lessens the humanity of the fertilized egg. And if a woman is suicidal she would be put in a mental hospital as with any other suicide.

So, all creatures need “assloads” of help to survive. We need an oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere. That atmosphere must be thick enough to block solar radiation. I need an entire ecosystem to support me with food and conditioning the atmosphere. I need lots of clean water, etc.

I do not understand your last sentence.

You need more intelligence then that, but if it makes you happy, monkey is now off the menu.

474

Left to their own accord a person in a coma will never wake up. Are they less human?

475

Aww, I think you are swell also. :slight_smile:

476

You are not in any more of a prison then those in a “parental prison” for 18 years.

477

Not precisely what I meant. However, your fundamental premise is axiomatic. It is true because you accept it to be true. To you it is indeed “bleedin’ obvious.”

478

The difference is that abortion directly results in the death of unborn children. Making abortion illeagel only indirectly results in the death of women. It is, again, like the car example. Driving a car is not a direct cause of accidents and death. Such tragedies happen only indirectl. Unlike, say, drinking poison, which directly causes death.

So long as I believe that a fetus has human rights, their can be no comprimise or exception on the issue.

479

In-vitro would have to be performed more carefully, one egg at a time instead of a batch of eggs. The IUD’s, possibly. The pill, if taken correctly, prevents ovulation and fertilization. Vigerous exertion should be avoided, but would be an accidental death if it occured.

It is no more of a reduction in civil liberties then those faced by parents of a born child.

480

Say I owe Joe a lot of money. The due date has come and gone, but I still can’t afford to pay Joe back. Joe is quite adament that I pay him now and is threatening to take me to court. So I shoot Joe in the head. Now, in a way, this is taking responsibility for the problem, Joe wanted money I could not pay him, so I shoot kill him, thus canceling the debt. But was it right to do?

481

You’re letting him push your buttons, you fertile nincompoop.

I notice how he’s stopped responding to me, though. I guess I’m not emotional enough for him.