Damn atheists during Christmas time

The BBQ Pit
1

Ok, look people, I understand you don’t believe in what I believe in. I respect that. This is America, you don’t have to share my faith. I don’t go to your house and try to make you read the Bible. I don’t sit you at gunpoint by the TV and force you to watch Christmas specials. I don’t expect you to get me a Christmas present.

So do me a favor. I’m a Christian, this is my holiday on Monday. As an atheist, you have nothing to celebrate at this time of year, except getting a couple days off work. You’re welcome for that, BTW. How many atheists will be going to work on Monday? Not because they have to and are getting holiday pay; but are working for straight wages because they don’t believe? Show of hands, anyone?

With the commercialization of Christmas, many people seem to have forgotten that this is actually a very important holiday for the Christians. This dickhead in my apartment complex has put a sign over his balcony that says, “This atheist wishes everyone a Merry Monday.”

Ha ha, asshole. I know you probably meant it as a joke, but the bottom line is you’re poking fun at something people believe in and take seriously. You’re an atheist? Fine, that’s your choice. Then don’t celibrate a holiday you don’t believe in. Don’t put up any fucking signs, don’t exchange presents, don’t watch the Charlie Brown Christmas Special (no really, don’t watch it, it’s not as good as you may remember). Go to work on Monday and don’t accept holiday pay.

But I believe in Christ. I believe this holiday is to celebrate His coming to the world (although I don’t believe He was actually born this time of year, but this is the time we’ve set aside to celebrate it). I’ve been raised to believe it my whole life. This is a part of me. I do not do much witnessing or debating on this topic on these boards, because it’s also been a part of me to respect others’ beliefs and opinions.

I can imagine how it must grate your nerves as an atheist to see all this fuss going on around you; the decorations, the music, the lights, the crap on TV. . . But guess what, this is nothing new. Same thing every fucking year. You knew this was gonna happen when you decided you were an atheist.

Look people, believe or not, whatever, but don’t come around during MY religious holiday just to thumb your nose at my faith, ok? (He singled out Monday, what’s he got against the Christians that he doesn’t have anything to say about Hannuka (pardon any misspellings there)? I don’t make fun of your beliefs (or lack of, whichever way you look at it), I ask you to pay me the same respect.

Atheists want their lack of a religious faith acknowledged during one of the two most important Christian holidays. You want to be recognized, fine, but show some fucking courtesy for our religious beliefs and pick a different time of year. Right now there’s Christmas, Hannuka, Kwannza, people celebrating the solstice – the end of December’s fully booked ok? I may start my own holiday next year and call it Myfootupyourassmas and will celibrate it on anyone who does anything stupid next year.

But then, I remember I’m Christian. I’ll fogive them for poking fun at my religion, as I do every year.

2

Crunchy, you know I love you, but bite me. I’m an atheist, and you know what? I exchange presents with the people I care about. I got to parties. I put up a tree. I’ve also been told by some well meaning Christians that I don’t have a right to do this, since I’m not Christian.

Are some atheists inconsiderate assholes? Sure. But so are some Christians, some Jews, some Pagans, some whatevers.

And you know what - I didn’t “decide” I was an atheist. It wasn’t like I said one day “you know what, I’m not going to believe this stuff anymore.” I can no more choose to believe tomorrw than you can choose not to.

3

Damn typos. Maybe your damning of atheists worked. :slight_smile:

4

I have heard, from athiests, that Christmas is a holiday even athiests love. Keep in mind that the holiday was borrowed from celebrations that predate christianity. Santa Claus, mistletoe, yule, lights; all these do not bring up the middle-east imagery of the birth of Jesus. Christmas has in the past been a very controversal holiday even among christians (I think Massachusettes banned it until late 19th century). Only after Charles Dicken’s “A Christmas Carol” did Christmas start having the mass appeal it has today. Think about it. The death of Jesus has much more religious significance to christianity than the birth.

So lighten up Scrooge.

5

I love Christmas, and I am an agnostic. But I believe the message of Jesus the man (or whoever he was): Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, and Love thy neighbor as thyself, is probably one of the most important messages ever. And on Christmas everyone is reminded of that.

And now, I REALLY have to stop procrastinating and start doing stuff around here.

----:)/ x o x o
----///\\

6

I’m not an atheist, but a pagan. Even so - if I have to put up with a month of Enforced Christianity - by which I mean Christian Christmas songs in every shop, Christian Christmas cards in every store (forget “Season’s Greetings,” they’re impossible to find and when you do they cost more than I have - I had to hunt for days and days), crèches in every public place, etc., etc - I am bloody well going to celebrate the fucking holiday in any way I please. For me, this means

  1. staying up all night on the Solstice for a Yule vigil and exchanging presents with my Pagan friends on the 21st, then cooking them a nice dinner;

  2. going to my parents’ place to exchange gifts;

  3. refusing any offers of caroling, midnight mass, and whatnot (you’d think that they’d eventually figure out that I’m a fucking witch);

  4. watching the eclipse;

  5. eating turkey with Mom and Dad (just like I ate chili with Mom and Dad last week, or pot roast with Mom and Dad a month ago);

  6. playing that video game that I can only play at home on my brother’s computer;

  7. going home; and possibly

  8. having sex.

'Tis the season. Go frankincense yourself.

7

Well, actually, I can’t really venture outside with intent to purchase anything (say Yule gifts for my friends, or groceries, or something I want) without hymns playing in my ears. It’s like I have to go shopping in a cathedral. It’s very unpleasant.

8

Must be a Canada thing (or a Québec thing?). We’ve got tons of generic “Seasons Greetings” cards. (Pagan cards are rather more difficult to find.)
As to the OP: Crunchy, lighten up. “Forgiving” somebody after posting a pit thread isn’t exactly getting into the spirit of the season. Just relax and make your holiday your own.

9

Considering the many atheists that post here, I kind of expected not many to agree with me about this.

porcupine - I did not mean that you did not have the right to celebrate. As I thought I made clear in the OP, I’m not telling anyone what to think or believe. My rant is directed at those atheists who are assholes. If you’re not like that, then why should you take offense? I was Christmas shopping last night and told a clerk behind the counter Merry Christmas. In response I got “I’m atheist, I don’t believe in Christmas.” How do you respond to that? If I met a guy while shopping who was wearing a yarmulka (sp?) I would say Happy Hannuka(sp again?) in return to him even though I don’t agree with his beliefs just out of respect for what he believes.

And maybe “decide to be an atheist” is bad phrasing, but I can’t think of another way to say it, since I decided to accept Jesus. I didn’t have to be baptized and be a Christian, I decided to at the age of 15. So that’s just my point of view on it.

cooldud - Some guy hangs out a sign flaunting that he thinks all I believe is bullshit while I’m actually celebrating the holiday of Christmas, and I’m the Scrooge? Ok . . .

If you’ve read the little goofy poem I wrote, A Crunchy Frog Christmas in MPSIMS, there was a line about how I don’t have a tree or lights at my place. That is actually true. I do have a nativity scene on top of the entertainment center though (just like the olden days, huh?) I know that the time the holiday is celebrated is taken from pagan traditions (see the OP where I say I don’t believe this is when Christ was born). But it was the pagans who still believed and worshipped something, not the atheists we stole the holiday from. I also know that Christ dying on the cross is significant (of course had he not been born he could not have been crucified, so who’s to say which is more important?) That’s why in the OP, I mentioned that Christmas is one of the TWO most important Christian holidays. The other holiday I was referring to is of course Easter (celebrating His resurrection, which is actually more important than His death. Had He just died, with no stories of His resurrection, I doubt He would have gained His current popularity).

For atheists who love Christmas, fine celebrate it, by all means! More the merrier. Even is you don’t believe in God, you may still believe in the basic fundamental feelings behind the holiday of peace and love for your fellow human beings. But in the middle of a Christmas party, don’t spout out how you believe there is no God and that Jesus was just another guy who died young like a Jewish James Dean. Show a little common courtesy for other people’s beliefs. My complaint is about the people who purposely say or do things with a complete disrespect for the feelings and religious beliefs of those around them.

Let’s take religion out of the equation for a second and imagine this from another hypothetical point of view:

It’s Memorial Day in the US. A staunch pacifist goes to a gathering of war veterans at Arlington Cemetery to honor the dead. He begins to shout out about how wrong war is and how wrong these people are for participating in the war and how we shouldn’t be honoring people who are murderers for fighting in the war and these people don’t deserve the attention. How well received do you think that would be? He has the right to speak his mind, but it’s an inappropriate time and place. It’d be damn right rude and anyone who did such a thing would get flamed in the Pit so bad his ass would smell like burnt pork for the next 20 years.

There may be others who agree with the pacifist’s ideas in the above example, but they keep quiet, knowing that Memorial Day, of all days, is a day they should be respectful.

Do you see the analogy there? I have no problem with atheists and I respect their beliefs and ideas. I know that not ALL athesits act the same. But knowing this is a religious holiday for many, some of these atheists should be a little more respectful. If you’re an atheist who celebrates Christmas, then say Merry Christmas in return when someone says it to you. Feel free to put up lights and a tree and swap presents. But if you don’t celebrate Christmas and you declare it by putting up signs? Then don’t celebrate and go in to work on Monday, but be respectful of other people’s beliefs.

Come on, I’ve been here for a while now people. How many times have I gotten into a religious debate? When have I ever witnessed? How often have I quoted the Bible? How many times have I openly declared myself a Christian? Not often. I keep it to myself because I know there are many people here who don’t share my beliefs and I have no desire to force my beliefs on anyone. But this is Christmas. True, it was originally a pagan holiday, but I’m not ranting about people putting up signs celebrating their religion during a time they would normally celebrate. I’m ranting about people putting up signs in a certain time of year only BECAUSE other people are celebrating; responding to religious celebrations just to shout out that they don’t believe and that is disrespectful to those who do.

10

Just to clarify something:
cooldude - I did not misspell your name on purpose. Sorry about that.

Matt I know that everyone goes nuts with the songs and the saturation of Christmas stuff, but that’s the commercialization I referred to in the OP. I can see how you can get fed up with it, but you can’t blame all Christians for the acts of the store owners who pipe that crap in all hours of the day.

All I’m saying is that I wish people could show a little more respect towards others’ beliefs. That goes for all us Christians too.

11

The difference being, Crunchy, that when it’s Remembrance Day you are not constantly assaulted for weeks on end with pro-war propaganda to commercial ends; it’s not automatically assumed that you are pro-war or that you will participate in military displays; the Muzak doesn’t blare marching music at you from every speaker in every store; every public building is not garishly bedecked with poppies; etc; etc.

12

I know, I just had to get this out of my system. Last night I went Christmas shopping and ran into 4 people who treated me like shit when I said Merry Christmas (the aforementioned atheist working behind the counter, one guy who said “yeah, yeah, yeah” after I held the door open for him, one person who just gave me a drop dead look, and one lady who snapped “I’m Jewish”). Ok, maybe I should have said Happy Holidays to be more PC, but the other phrase is more natural for me. The intent of being nice was still there wasn’t it? Then I go to work this morning and see that sign hanging off the balcony just pissed me off.

I needed to vent to get it out of my system, but I realize in the grand scheme of things, nobody’s getting hurt (hence the forgiven remark). It’s not like a lifelong Christian is going to drive by, see that sign and suddenly say, “Oh my God, he’s right! It IS only Monday, what have I been doing with my life?!” It’s just the utter lack of respect for other people’s beliefs really bothers me when I try so hard to be respectful.

13

I know, but it’s the best analogy I could think of. But even with the constant barrage of Christmas commercialism (which you can’t blame all Christians for) is striking back the way to go? I think not. I would also like to see the stores and networks tone down Christmas decorations. Let’s start waiting until AFTER Thanksgiving to put them up, just for a start. Let’s show “It’s a Wonderful Life” once, ok?

Trust me, matt as a Christian I would like nothing more than to see Christmas get scaled back some. Lose the commercialism, quit with the constant barrage of Christmas images. Let us get back to what the holiday means: a reminder of loving thy neighbor. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Besides, if I hear “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer” one more damn time, I may be forced to to do something extreme. I’m surprised that song hasn’t brought about another banning of Christmas. Come on, wake up people! When a song like “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer” becomes a holiday tradition to be played over and over again like the radio’s version of “It’s a Wonderful Life” it’s time to step back, take a deep assessment of the situation, and realize we’ve gone to far!

14

Well, that’s the point! What were you doing, or or store owners or the city or anyone else doing, when you blithely assume that everyone else is Christian and celebrating Christmas and eager to hear about Christmas and willing to participate in Christmas? No wonder atheists get so sick of the whole production!

15

You mean like assuming that the clerk from whom you are buying merchandise must celebrate Christmas, and addressing him thusly? How did you know the clerk wasn’t Jewish? Because he didn’t have a yarmulke on? Do you assume that everyone who doesn’t look like a Hassid or Hindu is Christian, and wish them a Merry Christmas? If so, you are guilty of precisely what you’re complaning about above. You’re only being respectful to the extent that you know what their beliefs are. If I was an Orthodox Jew, and you wished me a Merry Christmas, yeah, you bet I’d be upset. You aren’t saying it with the intent to be nice; you’re saying it based on an assumption that you and I both worship Jesus Christ and celebrate his birthday.

I am so utterly sick and tired of Christians who seem to want to persist in an entirely disingenuous persecution complex. Yes, some people don’t believe in Christ, and they’re going to tell you. The guy with the balcony didn’t put up an effigy of Jesus, or some mocking representation, or anything particularly sacreligious. He out up “This atheist wishes you a Merry Monday.” And that’s the worst you have to put up with?

He’s as entitled to be an atheist 24/7/365 as you are to be a Christian, and to say so whenever he wants, including Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Christmas, and the entire Lenten season. Should he sit down on the cathedral steps on Good Friday at noon and eat a rare steak? No, probably not. Should he hide the fact that he doesn’t believe in God? Fuck, no. Should he say it out loud? Yeah, probably. The more people do, the more the prevailing culture will realize that some people don’t believe.

We have to endure the religious stuff at both Easter and Christmas for weeks at a time, and you get a sign on a balcony and a couple of people who don’t acknowledge your holiday greeting? All in all it sounds like a fair trade to me. You live in a culture that celebrates what you believe and marginalizes what we believe. Count the number of sitcoms and dramas on the networks this month with special Christmas and Hannukah episodes. Now count how many feature characters who are explicitly nonbelievers. Consider yourself fortunate.

16

BTW, what I was replying to is this:

Whether or not you meant to be nice, I can tell you that hearing the umpteenth well-meaning person wish me a joyeux Noël has the same grating effect on my brain as hearing the umpteenth well-meaning person inviting me to bring my girlfriend to a party - an event that happily does not happen as often as I get wished a merry Christmas this time of year. What do I do? Wish them a blessed Solstice back?

17

Crunchy,

Why did you direct your thread at the athiest who put up the sign, “This atheist wishes everyone a Merry Monday” rather than those people who actually snaped at you when you wished them a Merry Christmas?

It seems to me if your neighbor wanted to be a jerk about it, he could have put up a sign that said “It’s all bullshit, monday is just monday”, but instead they put up a sign wishing others a Merry day, even if they didn’t believe it was a holiday honoring something they believe in.

OK, so the holidays make us all a little thin skined, whether Jew, Pagan, Christian, agnostic or athiest, but I do try to assume that folks are well meaning people until they prove themselves otherwise.

And I do think it’s nicer to greet those you don’t know with a “Happy Holidays” rather than “Merry Christmas” for just the the point you keep harping on in your rant… respect for others holidays. Politically correct has become a somewhat derogatory term because of all the people who’ve taken it too far, but in my view of things it’s really just a matter of giving respect where it’s due rather than trying to use terms that absolutely no one can be offended by or take exception to.

And even though I’m agnostic, if I know someone is a christian, I do wish them a Merry Christmas, for the same reason you might wish someone you know is jewish a Happy Hanukah, because that’s what they celebrate and you want to with them enjoyment in doing that.

So Merry Chrismas Crunchy :slight_smile:

-Doug

18

In addition to what Matt said, one other major problem with your analogy is that this guy did not march into the place where you were celebrating Christmas and start yelling about how Christians were murderers and the cause for the world’s ills. He hung a damn sign off his own balcony; if you object to the fact that you had to see evidence that someone thinks what you believe in is bunk, how do you think we feel when we see the cutesy signs on the churches saying “an atheist has no invisible means of support” or somesuch? Now, I don’t really agree with what the guy did; I think it would be equally rude for a Christian to put up a sign that says “a Christian wishes you a happy Friday” on Hanukkah. But it’s nowhere near similar invading someone’s celebration to yell at them–that guy’s balcony is his own private property.

So, you don’t get a happy response when you say “Merry Christmas” to four people, only one of whom do you know is an atheist, and so you feel you have to post a Pit thread about “damn atheists”? Did you ever think that maybe people are just tired and irritable what with having to listen to Christmas music for a whole month or trying to find a parking spot in the mall or maybe their cat died or something? Sheesh, have a little good will towards men and don’t bitch just 'cause some people may not be thrilled to have bouncy sorts of people burbling “Merry Christmas” at them for the thousandth time that day–particularly if they don’t celebrate your holiday.

Phil:

Oh, lord, now, don’t. A new trend seems to be the “unbeliever” who sees miraculous things during Christmastime and we see him suddenly reevaluating his lack of belief. Gag me. That’s the only “unbeliever” you’ll see on TV during these times, and it’s worse than none at all!

19

I see your point here. See this is the root of all the troubles. It never occurred to me that people may be sick of hearing that phrase. In my mind, I was just trying to be nice. But in all fairness, if someone is trying to be nice, at least be nice back. They could have at least said “thank you.” (Especially that guy I held the door for!)

And matt, I know many people (Christians, that is) aren’t as tolerant as I, but if you were to respond to my “Merry Christmas” with “blessed Solstice” I would take it as you wishing me well in return. In fact, if you were to say “blessed Solstice” to me first, I would most likely say “blessed Solstice” in return, out of respect for what you believe. Of course, I am not your stereotypical right-wing Christian. In fact, I voted Democratic these past elections. I do not believe homosexuality is a crime or a sin (my uncle was gay and died of aids in 1994). If a friend of mine was pregnant and asked my opinion on abortion, I am personally against it, but would remind her it’s her decision. (I get in so many arguments about this one, personally anti-abortion, but politically think they should keep it legal. And yes, I say I’m anti-abortion, not pro-life because I’m all for the death penalty. I say give the baby a chance, but if you fuck up when you should know better, sayonara!) Those little fish with legs that say “Darwin” - I think they’re cute and display the person’s beliefs as much as the little fish that says “Jesus”, but the fish that say “Jesus” eating the little fish with legs to me is intolerant of that other person’s beliefs and uncalled for.

I doubt I’m making myself clear here, but I can’t think how to word it any better right now. I’m a non-denominational Christian. I believe in tolerance of all kinds. Not everyone needs to share my beliefs and live the way I do. But I would like to have that attitude extended to me in kind. I’ve never told an atheist they will burn in hell for not believing. The title of this thread is not meant to say “damn those atheists to hell at Christmas time” but is meant more along the lines of annoyance, such as “The damn dog peed on the rug again.” It’s the intolerance that bothers me and the need people feel to strike back in frustration at the Christian holiday because that’s the one the media shoves down people’s throats. And I singled out the non-Christmas celebrating atheists in the OP because any other groups I can think of are actually celebrating something this time of year. I don’t wish any ill will on them, just wish they could be more tolerant and respectful of others’ beliefs.

20

Er, what??? You seem to be saying that those who celebrate Hanukkah and Solstice and Yule and et cetera are “OK” if they find Christmas annoying, because hey, at least they’re celebrating something around the time of your religion’s holiday! What in the world do you mean by this?

ONE clerk (who’s probably been working 70 hours a week this whole month because of your holiday–the Christmas season is exhausting and highly stressful, and in most stores you have to stand all day long, no chairs allowed for clerks) tells you they’re an atheist when you erroneously assume they’re Christian and wish them a Merry Christmas for probably the hundredth time that day. ONE person puts up a sign on their own property wishing everyone a “happy monday”. And YOU get so pissed off that you post a Pit rant–and it’s telling OTHER people to be more tolerant?

[Edited by Gaudere on 12-23-2000 at 12:45 PM]