The Pit and the Pendulum:
Sounds like someone needs to get back on the Prozac. Breathe, son, you’ll rupture something.
Uhmmmmmm…Pit? Is it just me, or did Crunchy say a long time ago that he was a democrat? Also, he has since cleared up his “forgiveness” statement. So, I think it’s time for somebody to take a nap, and stop being so damned cranky.
And Eve, the problem is that, annoying as Christmas-themed media is, the problem is that it remains profitable. There are enough Christians out there who don’t find It’s a Wonderful Life to be annoying, no matter how much it’s aired, and personally, A Christmas Carol is one of my favorite stories ever, simply because of it’s message of goodwill towards fellow men. (Note: This applies only to the original text, not the continuous remakes of it. Except the Muppet version. :))
The vast amounts of Christmas propoganda will continue to be aired by coroporations not because the CEO’s at NBC want everybody to be Christian, but because the numbers connected with said media are profitable.
That said, Merry Belated Christmas, Crunchy! I’m with ya.
That would be for those students studying pop art?
D’OH!!!
It really is a pain, being an atheist, to go through this time of year when my entire environment, from decorations outside to what’s inside my house on the computer, television, and radio, is Christmas-oriented. The worst part about it is that atheists, when mentioned during this time of year, are usually stereotyped as depressed, immoral individuals that the world should pity. We atheists don’t have any holidays and I personally would like one. However, the atheists of the world are not banded together by any organization or conspiracy, contrary to some right-wing radical beliefs. Oh well. The point is, Christmas wouldn’t bother me if those capitalist pigs didn’t mooch off popular belief by making their products Christmas-themed because of a long-held tradition of giving presents. Christianity doesn’t bother me, and neither do Christians individually, or members of any other religion, as long as they don’t try to force their beliefs on me.
I nominate this for oxymoron of the year. 
I’m sorry that non-believers feel “left out” at Christmas, esp. kids. I am a Christian but I wish the retail stores would tone it down - I mean, Christmas trees in freaking JULY? They annoy ME. I can’t imagine how annoying they would be to non-believers.
If it’s any consolation, I’ve sat home many a New Year’s Eve watching all those happy, drunk people waiting to see a stupid lighted ball drop in Times Square. Even if you turn off the t.v., people come out at midnight and light firecrackers and honk their horns with NO regard for the dateless schmucks of the world. So I can relate to your feelings, even if it only lasts for one night of the year.
On the OP…right on! There seems to me to be a big difference between saying, “I don’t agree with your religion, and I don’t want my rights infringed by it or my tax money supporting it,” which any decent atheist might say and we endorse it, and “Since I don’t believe in your god, you have no right to celebrate your holy days” which is trespassing on our rights. Decent people on both sides of the faith fence agree to respect each others’ rights. As for your comedian atheist neighbor, the worst he was doing was throwing cold water with a little insta-Grinch pellet tossed in for good measure on your holiday spirit.
But there’s a cosmic issue revealed here. Porcupine noted:
Hey, waitaminnit!!! You mean there’s another case where we gotta respect “It’s not a choice!”?!?
What the fuck? Ok, so don’t forgive if you don’t believe in it, but my faith is based on forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Nobody has the right or authority to forgive anyone? We’ll just have to disagree there. If someone wrongs me and asks my forgiveness, then I have the right to forgive them. I’m not saying I’m forgiving this man of sin, just for that little sign. In fact, I should have worded that differently, since the neighbor didn’t wrong me personally, and say “Since I’m Christian I’ll turn the other cheek now that I’ve gotten the frustration out of my system.” Does that make you feel better?
And I didn’t realize I was on your back. Had you read past the OP, you will see how I’ve tried to understand other people’s points of views and have even changed my initial opinion on what I thought that sign meant. And for the record, as was pointed out earlier, I’m a Democrat. Bush is not “my boy” Just goes to show Christians aren’t the only close-minded judgmental group out there, huh Pit? Just cuz I’m Christian, you see me as a Bible thumping pro-life Republican. That’s a stereotype which I don’t fit.
And exactly what the hell was I gloating about?
Do us a favor, Pit, before you respond to this post, read the thread and have some sort of clue what you’re responding too, ok?
Not to mention that “Blessed Solstice” more or less works out to “Merry Monday,” since (all religion aside) the days did begin getting longer at 5:37 PST on the 21st. Should I just say “Happy Apparent Rotational Shift! Enjoy the extra sunlight!” It’s all meant with good intent.
I can appreciate the anger people feel when Christmas is all around and you’re not Christian. I spent another year wiccan in Washington’s answer to Bedford Falls. My solution: I celebrated Yule with my pagan friends and Christmas with my Christian family. The important part was that we were together and loved each other.
And not that I ‘chose’ to be wiccan in the sense that I could conceivably not be, but I did know from the beginning that my path was not accepted by everyone. Personally, the roughest time of year for me is Halloween (or Samhain). Perhaps this isn’t the best way to handle it, but my system is just this: I don’t make a fuss about being wished a Merry Christmas or being in the presence of a wart-nosed, green-skinned witch figurine. If somebody asks me, I will say that I’m Wiccan. Otherwise, relgion is personal enough that I can interpret “Merry Christmas!” as “I hope good things happen to you soon.”
Just my two coppers.
Please don’t take that the wrong way. It was just an expression of annoyance, much in the same way as I would complain about “the damn Rams defense” or “my damn feet are killing me.” It is not indicative of my feelings towards atheists in general. I know I made some generalizations in my posts, in much the same way people make generalizations about Christians (the Bible-thumping stereotype) and I’m sorry for that.
And what exactly can we do? As long as it is profitable, the businessmen will continue to display Christmas stuff in mid November or earlier because people will buy it. Advertisers will continuously remind us how many shopping days are left to buy a present to guilt people into going to the stores. The toy companies will hype their product as a great present for the kids during Saturday morning cartoons to get the kids to bug their parents about needing THAT toy from Santa this year.
I have a feeling in this country, the money will win over the religious beliefs. It could just be me being cynical, but as long as there’s a profit to be made I don’t see how to stop the overkill.
“As long as it is profitable, the businessmen will continue to display Christmas stuff in mid November or earlier because people will buy it. Advertisers will continuously remind us how many shopping days are left to buy a present to guilt people into going to the stores. The toy companies will hype their product as a great present for the kids during Saturday morning cartoons to get the kids to bug their parents about needing THAT toy from Santa this year.”
—But, Crunch, dear, if YOU (and most Christians, I imagine) find this annoying, imagine how annoying it is for us non-Christians!
I’ve already acknowledged what a pain in the ass that must be for non-Christians, but I still don’t see how that justifies some people being rude to someone in December because it’s their religion that’s being exploited for profit and shoved down your throat. I was getting rude sarcastics remarks from all kinds of people about a week ago when all I was trying to do was be friendly, that’s why I snapped when I saw the Merry Monday sign (my stance on which I have retracted in light of Lost’s post). But I didn’t snap at the guy who hung the sign in my frustration. I didn’t contact management to try to have it removed. I didn’t tear the sign down myself. But I did see it, in light of my previous negative experiences I did take the sign the wrong way, and by flipping that situation around, yes, Eve I see what a pain it must be for non-Christians.
All I’m asking now is to please not blame the Christians (all of us anyway, I’m sure some have a hand in this) for the commercialization and exploitation of the holiday.
I hate to point this out but you can’t damn atheists. They don’t believe in hell so damming them seems, well, pointless.
Anyway, I don’t really care for Christmas in the classical religious sense. I don’t care to celebrate the birth of one man over the birth of others even though I recognize he is an important man to others. I think it’s wonderful that many people choose to celebrate his birth; however, I do object to the vast, unmitigated, vile and corrupt commercialization of this holiday. I find it offensive. If I were a devout Christian I would find the rampant commercialization so offensive as to actively take up arms against it.
As a pagan I respect my fellow man’s beliefs and tolerate the expressions of the season. I do not understand killing a tree for Christ but okay, whatever. Just respect the fact that I will not do this. I will put up a fake tree and participate, to a degree, in this holiday but there are many parts I do not understand and will not follow. I do participate in the gift exchange but I always make my gifts. It’s part of my beliefs so don’t give me shit because I took the time to make you a gift and didn’t go buy you something. Okay?
Hey, it’s called tolerance. It seems we could all do with a bit more. I’ll respect your holiday if you’ll respect mine. Kisses!
Show me the magic wand I can wave to make it all go away for you, and I’ll wave it, OK? 
I didn’t mean that to be too flip, really. And I can imagine that the Christmas hype is pretty bloody annoying for you.
You know what? This isn’t your damn holiday. This holiday, like many others was stolen from the pagans. That’s right… STOLEN.
Check out the book Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler for some good information on the basis for most of the major holidays. That’s right… they’re PAGAN.
Don’t get all high and righteous with us and claim that people are casting aspersions on your holiday when your forefathers stole it from US.
Great. How fucking magnanimous of you, dickhead. Why don’t you take your piety and righteous indignation, shove it up your ass sideways like the fucking martyr you are, and then walk around being MORE superior than you already THINK you are.
Welcome to my 400th post.
Hastur – righteous as your post is, nothing, really, is stolen. Holidays, dates and times are perverted, not really out and out stolen.
Jesus was a real man. His history has been well documented by such wonderful programs as FrontLine… in fact Jesus, his life and times was well documented tonight by FrontLine… he was a real man, his life very real… what came after is the subject for debate.
He was held up for martyr status and perhaps that is what you wish to debate. I, as a pagan, do not doubt the existence of Jesus of Nazareth… I do believe he was a real person. I do not agree that he died on the cross for my sins. I do believe he died on the cross but for my sins? No. My faith and belief lies elsewhere.
Just as I can assume and accept certain aspects of faith for other’s they are able to accept mine. Again, it’s all about tolerance, acceptance and faith. I find it sad that you cannot allow for anything but your own “way” of seeing. There are many paths. You, yourself, do not know the “true” way. Just as I do not know the true way. There are many paths to truth. We should all help each other along the way.
It’s called tolerance folks, get into it.
Thanks for the news flash, you half-wit, I myself said on the first page in my response to cooldude:
“But it was the pagans who still believed and worshipped something, not the atheists we stole the holiday from.”
Why doi idiots like you and Pit insist on having a knee jerk reaction post after reading the OP instead of reading the thread to find out what may have already been said.
I never said they weren’t. What’s your point?
Guess what, as a Christian, Christmas IS my holiday. Whether or not it falls on a time of year that used to be for the Pagans alone, it is STILL my holiday. So don’t get all self-righteous in return and pretend to claim total and complete rights on a specific day of the year. I never asked that people celebrate Christmas and Christmas alone on December 25th, but if you don’t celebrate, please be respectful of those who do. But you didn’t read beyond the OP, so you didn’t see any of that did you? Read on, Hatur, most of my posts in this thread deal with tolerance for others beliefs, and I’ve ever had my frame of mind changed and some new ideas brought to me by some of the Dopers who’ve posted here, in a much more constructive way than you have.
As you didn’t read the rest of the thread, you have missed where I correct that last statement of the OP and admit to it being poorly phrased. I hope your other 399 posts aren’t as poorly conceived as this one. This thread went on back and forth for about a week now, and suddenly two people get viscious in their replies, neither of whom seem to have read past the OP. But just for those of you slow on the uptake, I’ll explain AGAIN. I may be a Christian, which means I’m supposed to be forgiving and turn the other cheek, but I’m also human and fallible. Things got to the point where I got mad and needed to vent. That last line was meant to convey no hard feelings now that I had gotten it out of my system. I could’ve worded it better.
Now please read the entire thread before you respond toget the idea of what this thread is about before you post another knee-jerk reaction post.
And Byz, thanks for getting what I’ve been trying to say since that OP.
One more thing Byz. This is what I tried to say when I said my ideas aren’t the best or the only right ideas, but neither are yours (or something to that effect).
Thanks for saying it much more eloquently than I had.
Fucking word, Byz, Crunchy.
Hastur-chill out. No one said that Christmas was stolen or whathaveyou. Many people said they still celebrated Solstice on the 25. So they celebrate the same day-who fucking cares? Sheesh, got issues?
Oh, and Byz-rest assured our tree is 100% artificial! And there are many places now that allow you to take the tree, roots and all in a pot, and then replant it after the holidays. (But I like our fake one better-it looks incredibly real with out the fuss!)
I just thought I’d chime in here on the tree issue. My parents have has the same fake tree since I was about 2 years old. I’d say they got their money’s worth. And when I was living with my ex, we had an argument over the tree, I wanted to buy a fake one, but she wanted a real one.
I don’t see the point in a real tree. Shell out $50 every year so you can have the hassle of taking care of a 6 ft tree in your house? Then as it dries out you get the extra joy of cleaning the pine needles. Plus there’s the whole moral idea of having cut down a tree just to stick in your living room for a couple weeks. Not using it as wood for a fire to keep warm, just as a decoration that will be tossed to the curb in January. Oh, you like the smell? Guess what, they make these things called air fresheners. It can smell like pine in here all year round if you like the smell. Hell, my car smells like pine, sit in there if you like the smell – just don’t mess with the stations I’ve programmed into the radio.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t worry about me and trees either, I’m a fake tree guy all the way.