And traditionally, atheists are dicked over by the Christian population of Europe and America. But I guess it’s tradition, so it’s ok…
I do reply in kind, for two reasons:
If I didn’t, though, I’d get pretty annoyed real fast. Moreover, it is worth it to correct someone–albeit politely–if it means they may not assume you’re a flaming Christian next time.
sigh It’s not about the songs being Christian-they are studying music, and the history of it. To not study a famous composer because his music was Christian or whatever is ridiculous.
They are being classically trained. I mean, sheesh, should art students not have to study Michaelangelo’s Sistine Chapel frescas just because they aren’t all Christian?
And this is the kind of knee-jerk reaction I find to be bullshit. You make it sound as if ALL the Christians in the world got together at some huge meeting at the Vtican and said, “Hey you know what, let’s fuck with the atheists every December! Bwa-ha-ha!”
How exactly are you being “dicked over” I can understand being annoyed by the Christmas hype every year, but you’re hardly getting dicked over. Christians aren’t getting any special deals this time of year, there’s no special “Christian only” check-out line at the store for people who are Christmas shopping. We don’t get our own parking places closer to the mall entrances. Maybe we have different definitions of was gettng “dicked over” is. Yes, I can understand you being annoyed with the way atheists are portrayed in films and on TV with holiday themes. Yes, I can sympathize with you having to put up with all the decorations and songs everywhere you go. But I don’t see how all the Christians are dicking you over.
I realize that this is important music history, and certainly worth anybody studying, but what happens if somebody is part of the choir, but feels uncomfortable singing songs about Jesus being their friggin savior? There is plenty of historically important music–especially at a high school level (even a really really good high school level)–that can be performed that is non-religious. If teachers can’t have the children say Jesus is our savior, why can they have them sing it in the name of “tradition”?
I guess I’m seeing a distinction between studying something and being told “if you want to be in this choir, you have to sing this to an audience of your friends/parents/etc”. It is a bit of a tricky situation, and balancing the students’ need to learn with their rights is tough, but you can’t simply say “it’s a tradition” and be done with it.
Crunchy Frog: I wasn’t referring to Christmas specifically by that–I was pointing out that “it’s traditional” is not a valid defence. If you deny that for a long period of history atheists (to say nothing of Jews, Pagans, and whatnot) have been dicked over by the Christians (only sometimes as an organized whole), then you are being willfully ignorant of history. Granted, history has been a long train of people dicking over somebody else, and the Christians got their fair share of it, but for the most part in the last long-ass time, in our part of the world, atheists have been on the getting end and Christians on the giving…
Anyway, to reiterate, all I’m saying is that “tradition” is not an excuse.
I see, I thought you were referring to the here and now. In your case, I have to agree with you. The Christians in general were not a nice bunch in history and certainly did not live up to what the religion stands for.
Personally, as an atheist, I’d much rather celebrate Saturnalia than Christmas anyway…presents ALONG with drunken orgy has a much better ring to it 
As a former agnostic turned self-styled Hindo-Shamanistic Buddhist who finally came home to the Catholic Church, my answer to that question would be-
Sure, why not?
[South Park flashback]
Stan- “I’ll try to make it spin,
it fell, I’ll try again.”
Cartman- “Jews
play stupid games
Jews
That’s why they’re lame”
never could figure out what Kyle’s mom was singing, but she has a great voice.[/South Park flashback]
Ok - I am non-religious (though probably don’t have a strong enough belief in there not being a god to be athiest) I don’t generally celebrate Christmas in its traditional form either. This year (though also different by circumstance) a group of my friends and I had a celebration of friendship a couple of nights ago and that was our way of celebrating this time of year, which I associate with a recognition of love and goodwill, and not religious significance. This was done so that those of my friends who celebrate the Christian faith could spend the actual day of Christmas in their own way.
Crunchy I can see your point of view and am also glad to see it changing as you debate your point. It is often very difficult to view things from more than one perspective, especially when we are conditioned into our beliefs (either by family, friends, events or ourselves). I greatly respect the fact that while you started with a rant/vent of your feelings you have been willing to debate these feelings with others and modify your views based on others beliefs. Congratulations on a rare insight.
As previously stated I do not share your Christian beliefs though I recognise Christmas as an essentially christian holiday and wish all who follow the faith the very best for it.
However due to mass commercialism I think Christmas has also become a standard bearer for other messages and that is why a lot of other people also celebrate it, though they are not necessarily of Christian faith. I think now it is quite often seen by people as a way of saying thank you for the love and friendship we have received over the past year. I do not find this offensive either as I think we do not focus on this enough and anything that promotes these feelings can’t be bad.
In short Crunchy - I would hate to offend anyone by belittling (spelling?) their beliefs. So to you a Very Merry Christmas, to others Happy Holidays, may you all stay safe and sound and spend your days with ones you love.
yosemitebabe said:
I can’t speak for these mysterious atheists who seem to be hypocrites – perhaps you could point them to the SDMB.
However, I can certainly tell you, as I sit here typing this message, that I’d much rather be at work today and get a day off when it actually means something to me or even when I can just use it as I see fit.
So have a merry Monday.
Kinsey said:
Do they sing any Hanukkah songs about the 8-day miracle? I bet they don’t. Instead, they sing “non-religious” Hanukkah songs. Just like they sing “non-religious” Christmas songs.
Frankly, it would be best if they didn’t sing any songs relating to any holidays, but that concept seems to face huge opposition. So if they’re going to sing anything, they should include mentions of other holidays – and keep the religious aspects out of it.
I work in customer service, and people wish me a Merry Christmas all the time. However, I’m Pagan. But I celebrate Christmas, and Yule, and Hannuka (my mom’s SO is Jewish).
My response is usually something along the lines of “Thanks! You have a nice holiday as well!”
I take it on faith that someone wishing me a Merry Christmas actually means it. They hope that I have a Merry Christmas. They don’t know that I don’t share their faith, but to me, that doesn’t matter. They’re just being nice, and I appreciate it.
When I extend holiday greetings to someone, I generally say “have a good holiday.” A Christian can take that to mean Merry Christmas. An atheist can take it to mean “I hope your day off doesn’t suck.” That’s the way I want it to come across, anyway. Far be it from me to try & presume what strangers celebrate (or don’t).
And Crunchy–Myfootupyourassmas? BWAAAAAHAHAHA! I love it! If anything ever needed to be a holiday, that is it!
Crunchy
Sorry for not responding sooner, but I’ve been away for the Xmas weekend. Most of the things I wanted to say have already been said, so I’ll just respond to this in particulur, since I don’t like to leave personal responses unanswered.
**
Your rant may have started against a particular atheist asshole, but you made generalizations about what “atheists want” at this time of year, which is why I felt like responding. Every atheist I know celebrate Christmas to some degree. I know you’re not telling me I shouldn’t celebrate Christmas, but some Christians have. That doesn’t mean I think all Christians are inconsiderate assholes. My point was that, given the language of the OP, you seemed to be making a generalization about all atheists, and this is what I had the problem with.
**
I didn’t take offense. I was just pointing out the fact that not all atheists are “bah, humbug” when it comes to Christmas. Believe me, if I were actually offended, my response would have been a little, uh, warmer.
**
How would I personally respond? Hmmm, I usually say “Thanks. Happy Holidays.” But then again, the people who don’t know me who’ve said this to me are usually store clerks where I am buying Xmas cards or ornaments or Xmas presents. So it would be pretty assholish for me to respond any other way.
Fortunately, I left them on another board. Dopers seem to have a little more sensible about this particular issue. So far as I’ve seen!
I had a nice Christmas, thank you. Hope your Monday was nice.
Well, most Dopers are more sensible about most issues. 
I’m glad you had a good holiday. Me? I was busy being harassed by my wife to clean up and do various house projects (fix the closet door, fix the drawer, etc.). Now you see why I would have rather been at work!
I was getting lots of nice jewelry, pj clothes to wear around the house, and some neat stuffed animals! I also had fun kidding around with my cousins and eating really good food.
This thread seems to have said pretty much all that needs to be said about awareness and tolerance. I will add, however, that even “Happy Holidays” can offend some. You can’t please everyone. For example, we have a Jehovah’s Witness here where I work. They don’t celebrate any holidays, including birthdays. She (we’ll call her M) was very touched by the fact that after Thanksgiving, I walked into the office she shares with another girl (J) and said “J, how was your Thanksgiving? M, how were your two days off?” She thanked me for remembering that she didn’t celebrate any holidays.
I think “Merry Christmas” has been the default greeting for so long, even a lot of Jews and Muslims say it around this time of year. I think that for non-Christians (to expand on a previous post) the appropriate response would be something (pick the greeting of your choice)
Blessed Solstice
Happy Haunukka
Blessed Ramadan
Debauched Saturnalia
Gud Jul
Merry Monday (I actually kind of like that. I think we should say it every week, when Monday’s coming up)
As for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I don’t know. Merry Monday might work for them, but even that would imply that it was a day of celebration.
I won’t “forgive” you for your sactimonious bullshit. Know why? Because “forgiving” isn’t part of my religion. Nobody really has the right or authority to “forgive” anybody else you jackass. Get off our collective backs. We’ve been burned at the stake too often, and now face 4 years of official hate from Washinton. Your boy won. Don’t gloat, that’s just rude.
Another “damn atheist” checking in.
I am old enough to know by now that Christians own and rule this country, and that they periodically (Xmas, Easter and a few other times) get to joyously rub everyone else’s noses in that fact. I don’t like it. But when someone good-naturedly says “Merry Christmas” to me, I smile back and say “Happy New Year.”
But I think it is hard for Christians to realize just how fucking annoying it is to spend EVERY GODDAM DECEMBER seeing their religion promoted on TV, radio, print, stores, PA systems, public parks, you name it, as if 100 percent of the population is Christian. Y’all say, “We’re sick of the overkill, too,” but do any of you DO anything about it?!