I’m an atheist (and a Jew, too!) and I like to celebrate Christmas as well. I think Jesus was a pretty nifty dude. I get together with my family, and do the presents thing, etc. What I don’t like about Christmas is that many people feel they have to use it as an excuse to be charitable. I like to be charitable all the time; I don’t need an excuse. 
As an atheist, who celbrates Christmas with my parents, even though they aren’t christian either. Merry Christmas Crunchy.
For me? Christmas is kinda like Mother’s Day, Valentine’s Day, or Thanksgiving. Doesn’t really affect me either way.
Chinese food is a Jewish “tradition” for 25 December in the USA, along with going to the movies.
Why? Because they’re the only thing you can do. The malls are closed, the national parks are closed, too. I couldn’t go in to work even if I wanted to, and a lot of movies are released on 25 December.
So, I sleep in, take a nice hot shower, make my way to the movie theatre, see something brand spankin’ new, and then go get some take-away Chinese food to eat at home, all the while thinking “only X more hours until people stop $@%@#$ing wishing me a ‘Merry Christmas’ for another 10 months!” (I’m kidding about that last part.)
And thanks for chiming in. Did you read past the OP? I have acknowledged the other celebrations going on at this time of year and even in the OP state that I do not believe this is actually the time when Christ was born. I also state that the holiday was stolen by the Christians. So what was your point in bringing up what I have already acknowledged? I never claimed this whole piece of the year belongs to the Christians alone.
Well said, Crunchy Frog!
Merry Christmas!
Fuck it all.
Happy Festivus!
I’d just like to say that, even though this is the Pit and all, I love you all and would do you in a second if you were here. That’s because, as a card-carrying Apathetic Agnostic (“we don’t know and we don’t care”), I’ve celebrated the Holiday today with most of a fifth of Jameson’s and part of a bottle of Laphroaig.
Happy Holidays!
Did I mention that I’m an amorous drunk?
Hey good lookin, how YOU doin? Care for a Long Island Iced Tea?
Ah, the joys of being a non-denominational Christian: all the forgiveness, none of the guilt.
[sub](Let’s see how long before I get called out for that remark. It’s a joke people, a joke!)[/sub]
I’m with Crunchy on this one.
I believe that it’s a question of respect. I, too, am a Christian, but I respect all other religions. Christianity is right for me, but it might not be right for everyone. Perhaps God called you to be pagan, or Jewish, or Hindu, or some other religion. If that’s the case, then I’m glad that you have something to believe in. I celebrate and appreciate your religion with you, and hope that you do the same with me.
If you think that religion is a bunch of bullshit, then good for you. I admire your spunk. And I respect your decision. Kindly respect mine.
It seems as if most people attack Christianity because it’s the status quo. I admit that Christianity, and especially Christmas, is often overwhelming in its influence. Questioning Christianity is not a bad thing. But attacking those who believe in Christ is.
I would not go into a Hindu culture and say “Man, everything that you believe is a crock of shit. Where do you get off believing in all of these millions of Gods? Losers.” Granted, it doesn’t jive with what I believe, but Hinduism is right for Hindus. Christianity is right for me.
This is not meant to infringe on anyone’s 1st admendment right to free speech. Everyone has a right to his or her own opinion. But if your opinion is that the beliefs I hold most sacred are a crock of shit, why do you feel you have to rub it in my face? Common courtesy and respect would dictate otherwise.
If my community were to celebrate a Hindu holy day, I wouldn’t post signs saying “This Christian wishes you a Happy Sabbath.” I would realize that: 1) It would be an extremely petty attack, and 2) it would be offensive and disrespectful to the community at large. Rather, I would respect their holiday even if I didn’t celebrate it myself. To post a sign saying “This Atheist wishes you a happy Monday” on Christmas Day in essence is an attack on a well-established holiday. It is disrespectful in a way that is offensive.
Though I am a Christian, I am really, really drunk right now. (God bless Fat Tire Ale.) Essentially what I’m saying is that just because you ran into one Christian asshole doesn’t mean that we all are. Please don’t assault our holidays because of a few mis-guided zealots.
I can’t agree with Crunchy that the atheist’s sign was offensive. Yes, it was a public display of the guy’s lack of belief, but as has been pointed out, the Christians do exactly the same thing–continually, in fact. And I’m certainly one who gets fed up with it all being shoved at us from September on.
But I’m going to agree with some of what’s already been said here as well–I think some of the non-Christians are way too thin-skinned on the subject. I’m an agnostic, so Christmas doesn’t mean anything religious to me, but I have no problem at all with exchanges of “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Chanukah” or anything else. I regard them all as an expression of goodwill–albeit frequently a mechanical one–and I fail to see how this can be offensive, regardless of whether I agree with the speakers take on religion or not. Seems to me that goodwill shouldn’t be spurned lightly–there isn’t nearly enough of it in general.
I realize I’m an unlikely one to say this, but I really wish everybody would put the politics of the situation away (!) for a couple weeks out of the year. You tolerate me, I’ll tolerate you, and maybe someday the intollerants on all sides will become a minority.
Merry Christmas everyone. Deal with it. 
No…I’m not trying to offend. Merry everything to everyone. Have a good holiday. I just agree with many of you here - while hearing “Merry Christmas” (if you are not Christian) may get grating, it is no exuse to be rude in return.
There is something I’ve wanted to ask…I’ve encounted a few atheists who bitch about Christmas. Bitch about nothing being open. Bitch about everyone having a day off. (And I am not going to dispute this, by the way. If that’s the way you feel…) But it so happens that these particular atheists personally are enjoying the benefits of Christmas. They don’t go to work, they don’t want to go to work. They enjoy spending time with their family, exchanging gifts, having a tree, etc. What is there to bitch about? I don’t get it. If an atheist is actually not doing anything special on that day, then I can see them being put out by everything stopping on December 25th. But when they are actually enjoying the season (in their own way) what’s their beef about other people enjoying it too?
One girl I encountered on a message board bitched about Magic Mountian not being open on Christmas. It was a Christian oppressive plot, you know. (But - she admitted that she celebrated “Yule” with her family.) So what does she want? A whole lot of irritated Magic Mountain employees to work on Christmas so that a few people can go to an amusement park?
OK, slight hijack here…sorry.
I think you’re sort of all over the map, here, Crunchy. You’re upset by the expression of the opposite point of view during the Christmas “season” (as if it’s a season and not just a day) . . . but you’re also upset by the sometimes subtle and often overt pro-Christian messages during the season as well.
My point was that everyone depicted on television during Christmas is implicitly Christian unless it is specifically stated that they are Jewish. (Even the bloody Flintstones celebrate Christmas!) As far as the popular culture would have you believe, there are no atheists, and if there are, then as Gaudere mentioned, they are magically transformed from their natural Scrooge-ish, selfish, lonely ways to being caring, giving scions of goodness. That’s what atheists get at Christmas. All year, as a matter of fact.
I think there’s a reverse point to be made as well. While the content of the sign you posit is obviously inflammatory, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making note that, “At this time of year when Message X is thrown at you willy-nilly for six weeks, take a moment to consider Message Y as well.”
The increased lack of tolerance you might be seeing from atheists could stem in part from their complete marginalization, being pushed completely off the radar, for decades of American history. Until maybe the 1960s, it would have been completely culturally unacceptable to even think of letting your community know that you don’t believe in God and to stop attending church. Maybe some people have said, “Enough is enough; there is more than one point of view to be had, even at Christmas, and I intend to make mine known.”
I agree with that. On the other hand, I’ll tell you the story of the time I was working at Waldenbooks and two men nearly had a fistfight over who was next in line. An exchange which ended with, “Nice fuckin’ holiday spirit there, pal.” These are isolated incidents and not at all indicative of any particular group’s entire outlook.
I disagree. I think you should be able to politely correct people without being thought of as a “PC thug” or some other crapola. Without doing so, how will other ideas aside from the prevailing ones in the culture ever make it out?
Then there’s Milo, who seems to not be able to comprehend the difference between “public expressions of religious belief” and “my money being spent supporting your religious beliefs.” Whatever.
pl, why don’t you go a-wassailing?
Just an observation…
My two oldest kids attend public school, 6th & 7th grades.
For their “Winter Concerts,” which I have been attending for many years now, they sing or perform the floowoing:
Hanukah songs, Kwanzaa songs, and winter-themed songs (i.e., “Winter Wonderland”, “Jingle Bells”, “Frosty”…stuff that is not specifically Christmas), BUT they never perform a Christian Christmas song, like “Silent Night”, “O Come All Ye Fathiful” or something that mentions the birth Of Jesus.
Kind of a double standard, at least IMHO. Why is it okay to sing “Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel”, but not “O Holy Night”?
Because “Dreidel” is a rather cultural song, with no mentions of religious events.
MysterEcks - Thanks to a post by Lost, I no longer find the sign so offensive. Due to previous negative experiences the past couple weeks, when I saw that sign first thing yesterday morning, I took it in a negative way. Lost pointed out that maybe the guy was just getting in on the holiday in his own way.
I’m not upset by the Christian messages, I’m upset by the gross amount of commercialization (and the fact that so many of these TV hoilday episodes are so poorly done and unimaginative it just gets tiresome seeing it every year). I’m also not upset by the expression of alternate viewpoints, but I do get upset by attacks on a belief simply because it’s not your belief. That’s how I took my neighbor’s sign when I first saw it. But since Lost pointed out he may simply be joining the festivities in his own way, that makes me feel stupid for griping about it. If a Jewish neighbor had a sign that said Happy Hanukah, I would not get the least bit upset. I’m beginning to think that I took the message of the sign in the wrong context, due to previous bad experiences, the feelings of negativity carried over.
I see what you are saying now, and that’s a very valid point. As a Christian, that sort of slips under my radar. I can understand how that can be upsetting. As a Christian, I get upset by the stereotypical Bible-thumping right-wing redneck. I can see how you could get fed up with this stereotype which pops up all the time, and especially during the holiday season.
The problem seems to be how the Christmas message gets spread for so long rather than the message itself. No, a person has every right to express his thoughts and ideas. Learning other beliefs and ideas is how we grow as human and blend as a culture. I’ve never said he was wrong, just felt as if he was being disrespectful, and I’m even changing my opinion on that in light of what Lost has said.
I’m not trying to attack anyone’s beliefs, really. I just wanted to vent some frustration. Now that I’m seeing the other point of view, I’m realizing that most likely no harm was meant. But with what I’ve been through the last couple years, it’s hard for me NOT to believe and have faith in God; and it’s equally difficult for me to understand what other groups of people are thinking, so I can only rely on my own experiences to make a decision. I don’t claim to always make the right decision.
Let me help you understand where I’m coming from a little bit, so you don’t think I’m one of those Fundie fantics. I went to church regularly in high school, but became an agnostic during my Air Force years. I had completely turned my back on my faith during the first couple years after I got out of the service - this is where I learned my disregard for the constant barrage of Christmas images thrown at you every December and may help explain why I seem all over the place to you. If we had the time to sit and discuss things, I could probably be much more clear in my explanation, but this medium does not exactly allow for lengthy explanations. Something happened, very personal to me, and I regained my faith. I cleaned myself up, gave up drugs and cut back on drinking (still have a beer or two occasionally, but no more getting shitfaced and no more hard liquor). Then with my renewed faith in Christ, I grew a distaste for the commercialism surrounding the holiday, while still retaining a dislike for the shoving of Christianity down people’s throats (it’s the commercialism that forces it on you, these two things go hand-in-hand to me). To me, it’s a holiday to be celebrated like the birthday of a family member, not made a ridicule-inducing spectacle every year. I do not belong to any specific church. I’m non-denominational. As an aspiring novelist, I realize books are written using metaphors, and as a book the Bible should not be taken literally (especially after what may have been lost in translation). To me, the message of the Bible is important, not the words used to convey that message (does that make sense?) It upsets me that Christmas is so horribly commericialized and secular, that more Christian children think of Santa than Jesus on Dec 25th. It upsets me that companies try to cash in on a religious holiday. Does that help at all explain why I may seem all over the place?
You make another good point here. I’m starting to like you pldennison. This is another aspect of your beliefs that, as a Christian, escaped my notice.
I have no problem with that, as long as the person is polite. But staring people down, snapping at them, blowing them off when they’re just trying to be nice is a little fucked up to me.
Seems like a double-standard to me too. Mention it to the schoolboard, or the principal or something. If you allow one religion, allow them all or ban them all.
I see Montfort answered you, I missed that. I don’t know the lyrics, but I’m content to take Montfort’s word for it. Yes, if it doesn’t refer to any religious themes, that puts it in the same league as “Winter Wonderland”.
Actually, my sister is in the choir in a public school. (She has a GORGEOUS voice, but don’t tell her I said so-her head’s swelled enough as it is!)
Anyways, they sang traditional religious songs for their Winter Concert. Why, you ask? Because they are TRADITIONAL. Schools should allow students to do a medieval hymn, if it’s about learning something. I believe she may have done God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, or maybe it was Oh Holy Night.
Whatever. THey are beautiful, traditional carols. It’s more about the actual piece itself than the views expressed.
I think it’s better for a chorus to do Schubert’s Ave Maria than Jingle Bells anyday. After all-it’s classical.
PL-that reminds me of the time I went into the bank to cash my check, and some guy was in front of me, and they told him he didn’t have the right papers to do something-I forget what it was. So he screamed out, FUCK YOU! And slammed out the door. I looked at the teller right then and said, “And a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you too!” Everyone started laughing and feeling better.
Look-whatever someone wishes you, simply say, as I do, “Thanks, you too.” It’s not worth the aggravation. Save it for something more important.
Dreidel dreidel dreidel
I made it out of clay
And when it’s dry and ready
O dreidel I shall play
(repeat ad nauseum)
It’s rather secular, with a kick-ass melody, plus it has a good beat and you can dance to it.