I genuinely want to know, according to Mainline Islam and Christianity, am I damned if I do, and damned if I don’t, as the below verses would seem to indicate?
In the koran I have found the following statements:
While I have found the following in the christian bible:
I was about to post Corinthians 15:14 and other verses stating that Jesus is the way to salvation and is the son of god, but that is just overkill.
So, anyone care to explain their feeling about this? I do not expect answers showing that it doesn’t really mean that everyone is going to “hell”, I just want peoples opinions on this matter. P.S. Unlike my last topic, I do not intend to put downany mocking comments, since this is not the religion I was born to. At least, not without a really good straight line.
What’s the problem here? Yes, though they are both monotheistic religions, Islam and Christianity are inconsistent in their core beliefs. For Muslims, their strict monotheism is inconsistent with Christ being divine, and with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Equally, for Christians, while Allah may be God under another name, Muhammad is not one of God’s prophets. So you can’t be both Christian and Muslim : you have to choose one or the other (or neither, as I do).
Well you asked for opinions so mine is that the Koran’s take on Jesus is incorrect, and if you want to end up in heaven in the hereafter you’d wanna go with what the Bible says on the matter.
I get the impression that you’re kind of assuming that BOTH books are correct – which in this case would be impossible. Either Jesus is our guy, or He’s not. If the Koran is correct, then those who follow Jesus are damned. If the Bible is correct, then He’s the only way to heaven. The Bible doesn’t make the claim that “these are the rules for Christians only,” it basically says “this is how it works, universally.” From what little I know of the Koran, I am under the impression that Islam doesn’t teach that Muslims have their own heaven and everyone else is subject to the rules and consequences of their chosen religion – it seems as though they too believe that Allah is the only option.
Allow me to go off on a tangent for a second. Jews don’t seek converts because they believe that their rules apply to only them. If you choose to convert to Judaism, then your way to God is through whatever Judaism requires. If you’re a Gentile, though, they pretty much believe that your way to God will be through whatever religion you choose. That’s why they don’t have a problem with the concept of, say, Christians ending up in heaven – they just view Christianity as an option – for Gentiles. This is my understanding after taking a class on Judaism and hearing the (Reform) rabbi discuss this. This may not be the way all sects of Judaism believe, so I really hope some Jewish Dopers drop in to elaborate more on this (paging zev …).
But back to the Islam and Christianity thing. Unlike the Jews, both religions believe that their guy is IT, no exceptions, no other alternative paths. We could argue all day whether either religion has it right, but the point I’m making is that both religions cannot be right on this. Either just one of the books has the right idea when it comes to Jesus, or neither of them do.
Or … if Muslims end up in heaven if they follow Islam, while Christians end up there by following Jesus, then it would appear that the Jews had it right all along
– follow the rules of your chosen faith, be good and you’ll get there.
I think it matters more who you are trying to show your membership card to. The Mullah, or the Priest will probably only be able to recognize the membership cards issued by their central authority on earth.
I think God can read better.
Tris
“The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure.” ~ Lao-tzu ~
Ow, my head. It feels like there are a million monkeys with a million typewriters in my head, and all of them are using the typewriters as sledgehammers in my head, trying to destroy my brain stem.
P.S. This is exactly the kind of candid response I am asking for. F.y.i., I do not assume that both books are correct, I just want to get other peoples opinions on the matter, on a scale all the way from, “It’s bullshit”, to “It can be explained as follows”
The nature of Jesus is a central issue is all sorts of religious debate.
Mainline Christians hold He was completely human and completely divine. (Explain, discuss, give examples, use only one blue book.) Coptics say He was completely divine. Muslims that he (with a small ‘h’) was simply a human.
The point is quite central to the development of the Revealed Religions.
There’s a decently popular idea in Christianity that while Christ is the only way to salvation, it may be possible to receive that salvation without worshipping Christ by name.
For instance, John Paul II states in Crossing the Threshold of Hope that people of other religions might have an “implicit faith in [Christ].” And in Mere Christianity , Lewis writes that while “we do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him.”
And with this idea in mind, a Christian is able to believe that Muslims might still receive salvation. I don’t know if a similar idea exists within Islam, however.
Eutychians (who I do not believe they exist anymore) believed that He was completely divine. Copts believe that Christ is in one incarnate nature, i.e. a divine nature that is fused to a human nature.
I for one, do not really see the Koran and the Gospel as mutually exclusive.
While later scholars and disciples claimed that Jesus WAS God, Jesus himself only claimed that he was the SON of God, not God himself. If the Gospel is true, he refused Godhead while he was alive, even until his death on the cross.
The rest of the New Testament was written later, after Christ’s death (as were at least a couple of the Gospels), and they represent Man’s interpretation of Jesus as a representative of God, or as Christ. While they might have been divinely inspired, they are still an interpretation, and no one from that time would have claimed that those writings were directly from God.
The word Christ in Greek simply means “The Good One.” There is no divine connection to the word Christ except in the New Testament, so the simple fact that Jesus is referred to as “the Christ” does not imply any divine connection, either.
Even the OP’s original quote from John:
does not in any way read to me that Jesus IS God. (Even in the original Greek text.)
Jesus’ main message while on Earth was that people could be saved only by trusting in God. He does not insist that people have to worship in specific ways (except that worship should not be done only so that others can see how pious you are), nor does he insist that everyone drink a little wine and eat a little bread on the way to Salvation. He condemns those who condemn others, and accepts anyone who is willing to accept his Way of forgiveness and love, which was quite a contrast to the priests of the Temple and “pious” Jews of that time.
Most of modern, established Christianity condemns FAR too much, which runs counter to Jesus’ words and acts.
In many ways, the Koran seems to me to be an attempt to “fix” some of the interpretations of the teachings of Jesus–not to contradict them, but to try to help people see another way to interpret them. Islam DOES accept Jesus as a prophet on the same level as Abraham and Mohammed, and as such, it does recognize that Jesus did represent God. However, it may be that God gave his Word directly to Mohammed because God did not like how Jesus’ words were misinterpreted.
The basic message of the Koran is the same as the message that Jesus tried to convey: Trust in God, and love your neighbor. The Koran includes many more specifics of how to worship and live day-to-day, but the essential message is the same. In other words, the Gospel and the Koran do not necessarily negate each other.
In order to be Muslim, you must submit to the law of the Koran, as well as the message. In order to be Christian, you must trust in God the same way that Jesus trusted in God.
Technically, according to Koran, you can follow Jesus as a prophet & as the coming Messiah, but not as God Incarnate/Son of God. It’s an odd paradox in Islam that while Mohammed is the Seal of the Prophets, was normally concieved and died, Jesus is the Messiah, concieved of the virgin Mary by the creative power of Allah, was taken into Heaven to be spared crucifixion, and will return to destroy AntiChrist, estahblish the Kingdom of Allah, and in some Islamic views, live a normal life to die & then be resurrected.
Even the term “Son of God” is blasphemous according to the Koran. And while Jesus did not specifically stand up & say “I am God”, he claimed a WHOLE lot which leads to that conclusion- the Johannine “I Am” statements, the authority to forgive sins, jurisdiction over the Sabbath, and even the Sermon on the Mount “You’ve heard it said…, but I say…” quotes.
Also, “Christ” means “the Anointed One”, a title for priests & kings anointed with oil for Divine service & leadership.
Jesus also tells everyone he meets to “follow me” as part of following God (except when he’s discouraging people from following him if they aren’t really committed).
And he did say that one must eat His flesh & drink His blood to have His life.
In denying Jesus as “Son of God” and crucified Savior, the Koran is indeed irreconcilable to the Gospels.
People often get defensive on behalf of “religion” or “the religious community”, and yet how do they expect to be granted any credibility with their house divided against itself like this? It’s one thing for a religious minority to play the victim in the face of oppression by a majority religion, but for the overwhelming majority that the religious commuity constitutes to play the victim in order to avoid criticism or dismiss secular ideas is rather disingenuous.
Which post exactly are your referring to? I haven’t seen much that I would characterize as defensive behavior or playing the victim in this thread. Or are you referring to Religious folk in general?
Neither point of view is valid. All organized religions are nothing more than elaborate con games. I say this because I spent better than twenty years of my life researching points to support my Christian beliefs. What I found in the course of that study is why I am no longer Christian - it’s all a scam.
Well, this hasn’t had anyone post to it for awhile, so I feel like throwing in my two cents. As I read it, according to christianity, all non-christians will go to hell. According to Islam, all christian go to akira, which as I understand it is both a good movie, and their name for hell. The only way around it is to say that members of the opposing religion goes to the “real” heaven, that is to say, the one in the conception of the one quoting it, a la’ Israfel.
How arrogant. I am disgusted by the whole thing. What kind of a dialog are members of an interfaith alliance, such as I see springing up everywhere, suppost to get along when each feels the other is going to hell!
