Dancing Palestinians

Factual Questions
41

Perhaps we should just look at what has been claimed, and presented as evidence. Now I know that it’s entirely possible that old file footage was used to portray the situation; that seems a regular practice among various media. I won’t debate the merits of that other than to say I oppose it strongly.

I also think that the majority of those celebrating were doing so in complete ignorance of the horror of the events (not that such ignorance excuses them entirely from condemnation).

But let’s just compare :

One man has made the claim that CNN was using file footage to portray the events, in a posting to a message board (apparently), which has since been copied elsewhere (counterpunch).

That footage itself has not been shown, so at the moment (unless someone else has kept the footage), there is no way to verify this independently.

While the student has signed his name, the footage is apparently owned by a ‘teacher’. Despite the fact that the teacher is desparately reporting this to many news agencies, he remains unnamed.

Either the student or ‘teacher’ identifies the celebration as being of ‘the invasion of Kuwait’ taken in 1991. What is normally termed the invasion of Kuwait was done by Iraq in 1990. This is a minor detail, but a potential error nonetheless.
CNN has not made any public response, either because they are unaware or for other reasons.

There is plenty of evidence for the celebrations :

http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010911/wl/1000255795mideast_lebanon_attacks_bei104.html

http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010911/wl/1000253600mideast_terrorist_attack_jrl113.html

also the picture of the woman posted by elmwood.

An AP article in the Jerusalem Post :

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34665.html

Here’s a column which mentions Arafat’s denial of the celebrations (reported in NY Times), and the story on the threatening of the cameraman :

http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/14/2001&idMessage=8296

There’s also a link in there to the (MS)NBC footage –
go to the bottom of this page, and click on
“Worldwide reaction to the attacks – 9/11/2001” (not the later reports). I can’t seem to view this, however, so someone else will have to see what’s there :

Now, none of this evidence means CNN didn’t do it, but so far, the burden of proof is on their accusers.

42

OH MY GOD! YOU PEOPLE MEAN TO TELL ME YOU DON’T TRUST WHAT YOU SEE ON THE TELEVISION?!?!?!? THIS IS TRULY THE ULTIMATE SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!

sorry! i think C K Dexter Haven has it about right. we may not be seeing the actual people dancing, but i believe there are some dancing (underline actual and some)

to notmrknowitall: you, sir, impress me! keep up the good work!

43

Your first two links don’t work for me, Jack…

44

Take a look at these pictures .

45

If a culture celebrates terrorist attacks like this, then there is something wrong with that culture. There are things wrong with my own culture too, but I try to rise above. This is how a culture can grow - by people within the culture realizeing a problem and rectifying it. This particular cultural problem seems to be a particularly gruesome one, and one that probably effects the emotional well being of it’s members on a lot of levels. Sheesh here we are in america trying to analyze whether it’s emotionally healthy for children to play with toy guns, and palestinian children are celebrating terrorist attacks! Very scary. How can too such disparate cultures come to terms?

I, personally, don’t have much problem with the idea of showing a group of anonymous palestinians celebrating when speaking of such an event even if the displayed palestinians are celebrating a different event. As long as the message being sent is accurate. How can we verify that there were celebrations and how can we find out how widespread those celebrations were? That would be more interesting to me. If there were celebrations, then I have no problem with this footage even if it’s from 1991, as long as its a fairly accurate portrayal of the actual events.

Actually, I’m fairly confident that celebrations occurred and that we don’t have any way to know exactly how widespread they were. And, I don’t think it’s worth my while to put much work into verifying these beliefs. But, if someone else were to go through the work, I would be pleased and grateful.

46

According to Jim Romenesko’s MediaNews, that is no longer the case. That’s a letter in response to an earlier query by Dave Barry.

47

This might be more properly discussed in Great Debates. Carvalho doesn’t offer any proof of his assertion, and he seemed to be saying, “I’m sorry so many people got killed, but the US was asking for it.” Sounds to me like he’s got an axe to grind.

I’m going to need more than the word of someone with his own agenda before I’ll believe that CNN used file footage.

48

I’m astounded to see this even being discussed seriously here.

49

To return the the original question:
No one seems to be able to corroborate Carvalho’s claims.
Beyond that, there’s plenty of evidence from a variety of sources that more than a handful of Palestinians responded to the news by celebrating.

50

Sorry about those links – the lines are too long which probably also messed up the formatting there too.

Here’s the fixed links :
Celebrations, man with gun (this one also visible on barbitu8’s link)

Children with a flag

It might be worth it too look at some of the other pictures – you can also find :

Palestinian children lighting candles in rememberance of victims in US

Palestinian girl holding candle

Israeli Arab at rally in support of US
The footage on MSNBC that I linked to should be the same as mentioned in the Romanesko response (Martin Fletcher), which might have been the only one shown. I figured there’d be a proper response soon enough.

So there we are – a clear response to an unsubstantiated, ax-grinding attempt to mislead us. Anyone e-mail counterpunch yet?

Hey, johnson, you might be astounded, but at least ignorance was fought and defeated (in this forum, at least). That’s what we’re here for.

51

Hope this isn’t off topic. But I saw the same film. Then a short time later They cut away from live coverage to supposedly a series of missles attacking an oil refinery in Kabul. Did anyone else catch that clip??

52

The Chief News Executive at CNN has responded to these charges on Romenesko’s MediaNews (a site that is generally reputable):

http://www.poynter.org/medianews/letters.htm#jordan

53

I need some help with this one…

I remember reading somewhere that the 11th of September has some significance in Palestine. I think its the birthday of one of the founders of Palestine, or one of the Founders of the PLO.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, Why was there none of the usual US flag/ Uncle Sam effigy burning that is usually present in those demonstrations?

54

The Independent Media Center web site now has a posting that the guy who originally alleged that the tapes were recycled from 1991 is retracting his claim. You can read it at:
http://uk.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=11546

55

And here is what snopes has to say (nothing that hasn’t really been said before in this thread):

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/cnn.htm

56

I’m glad someone 'fessed up. I tell ya, you read a bunch of indy media stuff and you start to get a little paranoid about corporate stuff…(Of course, it doesn’t help that I work in advertising/pr either). On the other hand, indy media also has a rather large axe to grind…I don’t know who to trust (other than youse guys and gals…and even then I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if I corroborated your info…heh).

On an odder note, I just tried to load up counterpunch to see if they had covered the retraction…and it didn’t work. Neither did the snopes link nor the indymedia link also posted. Its a conspiracy!

Absimia

57

Here is something from the Washington Post which everyone can trust.

58

The official response from the BBC has yet to filter through but the Editor of the beeb’s premier political radio show (the ‘Today’ programme, Editor Ron Liddle) has researched it and is happy with the source.

I’m still a little confused by Eason Jordan, CNN’s Chief News Executive, using a Hotmail address to refute the accusation (or at least as a respond address) but l guess I’ll wait and see what the beeb say…

59

Turns out it was a hoax. That palestinians were celebrating on the streets was not a hoax. But the footage that, irresposibly, was shown so many times was staged. It wasn’t some conspiracy by the western powers that be though, as the lony leftists would have it. It was, of all things, a palestinian tv crew that staged it.
I don’t have any corraboration in english. The guy who found this out was Bernd Dörler, working for die Stern, a german magazine.
Here’s my source, if someone happens to know swedish.
http://www.dn.se/DNet/road/Classic/article/4/jsp/Render.jsp?d=262&a=225473&f=index.html

(fixed error - Jill)

[Edited by JillGat on 09-23-2001 at 01:40 PM]

60

I received this on Friday. It’s the text of an e-mail concerning one of two separate inquiries carried out by the BBC in relation to the footage:

Thank you for contacting us about the footage of Palestinians celebrating in the
streets of East Jerusalem following the events in New York on Tuesday 11
September. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying. We know our
correspondents appreciate a quick response and I am sorry that you have had to
wait so long on this occasion.

I have made some enquiries on your behalf and I can confirm that the pictures we
broadcast on the above date were filmed by the Associated Press Television
Network, who are one of the world leaders in international newsgathering,
production and distribution. These images were filmed on the day that the World
Trade Centre was attacked and this fact has been confirmed both by the
Associated Press and independently by the BBC’s own Jerusalem bureau. Although
we cannot comment on the validity of the media sources who have claimed
otherwise, we are satisfied that the footage we broadcast was genuine.

I hope I have been able to put your mind at rest. Thank you again for taking
the trouble to contact us on this matter and for your kind comments regarding
our news broadcasting generally.

Regards

Stewart McCullough
BBC Information