Daredevil Season 2: Episodes 1 to 4. No spoilers after that please. Open spoilers up to that only.

Cafe Society
#1

As per discussion in this thread, an experiment. The hope is to have three chapters of these threads so that those of us who do not quite binge have a place to participate spoiler-free of what comes next.

Definitely enjoying the season so far. Yeah yeah nicely done fight scenes especially that bit going down the stairs with the Dogs. I know I am in a minority here, but those are not what I find so appealing.

Not quite sure why Foggy did not pick up on Claire’s mention of helping another big guy and having to deal with the mess (or something like that) and wondering how that will come back into the story.

Surprised that Matt was so caught off guard that Grotto had done more than penny ante dealings. Although to Frank maybe the dog fighting was the worst offense Grotto did?

Had been surprised that Frank had been so unprepared and relatively easily captured but of course that then was explained. And sure he’s an animal lover but the man talks about watching buddies dying not having bothered him and he cracks over them threatening to hurt his rescued dog?

Had not expected Frank in custody so soon in the story. Not seeing the attraction of Matt to Karen, and expected more jealousy from Foggy. Who really is a better match for her and plenty heroic enough in his own way.

Had been thinking Fisk’s widow would come back into the story.

Brett’s partner not getting a share of the undeserved credit for the collar seems ill-advised.

Participate if you’ve gone farther, and I will be by tomorrow, but no spoilers beyond ep 4, where we just meet Elektra please.

Let’s see how this works. If someone else wants to start an ep 5 through 8 thread feel free. I’m not there yet myself!

#2

This is great, and coincidentally exactly where I am in the series.

I too love Daredevil for the quiet bits more than the loud bits. My biggest problem with the show is gratuitous grody violence. The first season’s dude who spiked his own head on a piece of glass or fencepost or whatever is the classic example, but episode IV’s extended ice-pick-to-the-eye didn’t actually add much joy to my life in any way.

That said, I like the action a lot more than my wife, who, during the stairway sequence, actually picked up a book to read until it was over. I appreciate the excellent choreography of some–not all–of the action sequences.

My favorite parts of the show are the quiet parts, the talky parts, that other reviewers dislike so much. The two conversations between Daredevil and Punisher have been great–the rooftop discussion of lethal violence, and then the incredible soliloquy by Frank about coming home from war. I didn’t think Punisher could be an interesting character, but writing and actor are really superb in this case.

Foggy’s bit in the hospital was also a lot of fun to watch. It’s good to see him excel as something beyond comic relief. I’m still not sold on Karen’s badassery; she had one great moment (bang!) in the first season, and since then her sneakiness doesn’t actually seem all that interesting to me.

In short: more talky bits, more awesome moments for sidekicks, less drills through the foot, please!

#3

Thanks for starting this approach, DSeid. A worthwhile attempt to discuss this series and 1-drop series in general.
As for the show, I agree with the posts so far. Felt like they were “dialing in” Castle during these episodes. His attitude towards violence, where he would be a softie. And while I VERY much agree with the need to lose the “grody violence” (it is, indeed, grody), I would’ve predicted that Castle would’ve Keyser Soze’d the dog as a statement of his dead-inside-ness.

Also like the talky bits. Interesting that Daredevil-Punisher, Batman-Superman and Iron Man-Cap all are positioned as “how far will you go”/“what does a true Hero do here?” type of conflict. It is always about whether you buy the stakes - with Daredevil-Punisher, I am happy to go with it. The dialogue, noir feel and acting quality make it easy to roll with. Yay. From what I am hearing, BvS is not nearly as satisfying at defining worthwhile stakes between the players.

Matt/Karen/Foggy - yes, liking Foggy having more substance. Good actor. Deborah Ann Woll’s look and Karen’s scrappy Harriett the Spy type of character are normally not good for me. Getting her transitioned from plucky beginner to something a bit more substantive is the biggest question mark of the series for me - will I buy her? Well, and obviously how they deal with the other major character introduced besides the Punisher, later in the series (the intro is very well publicized in non-spoiler reporting, so I assume is no big deal to lightly reference here…)

#4

I’m enjoying it, about halfway through.

But…

“Not seeing the attraction of Matt to Karen…”

What are you, freaking blind?

#5

To objectify the actor, yeah, I get this. DAWoll is pretty in a very specific, big-eyed, almost-quivery blonde sort of way. Fortunately, she is not an extreme version of this look - for instance, I really can’t handle **Amanda Seyfried’s **look, personally. She reminds me of an overstressed chihuahua. DAWoll is far more attractive than Seyfried, but I want to see how strong her character is.

I have the vaguest of recollections about her character in the comics universe. I want to say that she goes through a dark period, but don’t need it spoilered about here. I think that may be why I am holding off on forming a view of the actor, the character and her relationship with MM/DD.

Everyone’s mileage varies. But, given the actors we’ve seen so far, I would take Rosario Dawson in a heartbeat.

#6

My God, who wouldn’t?

#7

She dumped him. Karen is literally the only other woman he ever spends time around. He’s lonely and awkward. Of course he gets a crush on her.

As for Karen, she sees this dude who’s a total hottie. What’s not to like?

#8

I just finished watching episode 4 so the timing of the thread is great.

I too enjoy the dialogue, but sometimes it is so on the nose it’s cringeworthy. Like they need to get the ideas out front and can’t think of a better way to show them. The parts where the story needs to be pushed, like, “is it worth it…” and the scene with the priest, that was not good. The banter the characters have is great though.

The one thing that stood out to me is in episode 1 where DD and punisher go head to head. Daredevil should not lose in hand to hand vs. Punisher. No way, no how, never. At least, that’s how I see the character so during that whole engagement, while it was shot great and looked fantastic, it totally took me out that DD was having any trouble whatsoever.

I don’t know the actor’s name off the top of my head, but Punisher (Shane from TWD) is cast very well.

I’m really liking the season so far, more than Season 1 which seemed to peak early.

#9

I’m not sure what you mean by 'Kayser Soze’ing the dog, but, even without the stuff from the end of the episode, I thought it was pretty clear Frank wasn’t ‘dead inside’.

The dog seemed pretty obviously to me to be something to care about. Something Frank latched on to, because his family was gone. He NEEDED something to care about, and the pup was it.

#10

Keyser Soze spoiler (from The Usual Suspects): Keyser is a (possibly mythical) Turkish drug dealer who comes home one day to find that smugglers have raped his wife and killed one of his children, and are holding his family hostage to force him to… do something. Get out of the business or whatever. However, Keyser is such a bad-ass that instead of giving in to their demands, he kills his own family. Then he kills all but one of the smugglers (to leave a witness). Then he kills all their families, their friends, and people who owe them money before going underground himself. Wordman guessed that Castle would kill his own dog to remove his enemies’ leverage over him. I like that thought, although it didn’t work out that way.

#11

Yeah, in the comics, DD can usually make pretty short work of the Punisher. But in the series, even ordinary thugs often require a few punches before going down. A couple of the Dogs from Hell guys were giving Matt a tough time near the end of that fight.

#12

Agreed about the gratuitous violence, it’s a little too over-the-top - except maybe in Castle’s actions, where it’s supposed to be way outside of our comfort zone. But one thing that annoyed me lots was Castle and DD turning their backs on each other constantly during their fighting. Castle knocks DD down, then walks calmly away while DD is on his hands and knees, spitting blood. DD knocks Castle down, punches him a few times, then turns and goes to help Groot (or whatever the criminal guy’s name was). Castle knocks DD flat on his back, then turns away to pick up his rifle and start carefully aiming it across the street. Really, guys?

Plus, there’s way too much headbutting for a guy fighting a guy wearing horns on his head.

Still really enjoyed it a lot.

#13

Well played.

I see him more with a stronger personality type is all. Claire sufficed. Even when Karen is doing brave things she presents … quivery. It’s not about looks.

Buthaving now gone ahead one ep I see why he might be shying away from a strong personality type now and that they are intentionally putting a compare contrast out there for us … and him.

#14

The fact that he’s not dead inside makes him a lot more interesting to me. He changes his mind; he gets enraged; he protects a dog. Dude isn’t dead inside, he’s completely tormented. That makes him an awesome villain.

#15

I never thought Punisher was “dead inside”. Quite the opposite. He’s caged rage inside. His actions are vengeance and violent justice personified.

And letting the dog get tortured would just be shitty and stupid. His goal was never to deny the bad guys the money. It was a trap he set on both ends. Letting them torture him help set the trap, caving when the dog was brought in began the springing of the trap.

#16

Thank you for providing that explanation. Yep, having Castle NOT be dead inside is better for a longer-term character. I was just curious how far they would go, given the S1 self-head-spike maneuver.

Really didn’t like that, on a number of levels and prefer this show when it skates close to gore, but doesn’t go full on.

#17

I think the Karen/Foggy flirty relationship from season 1 would’ve been a better fit and more interesting to develop. Pairing Matt up with her just seems too predictably “television”.

Strangely (?) my favourite parts so far are the quiet moments where Daredevil and Punisher talk things out. What might have been melodramatic in any other show or movie have been quite compelling scenes here.

#18

Great idea. Thank you. I’m not a fan of binge watching, so this style works for me.

I admire the fight sequences from a technical standpoint, but I prefer advancing the story.

I’m not surprised. Even “ordinary” people will gladly watch dozens of people get killed on screen, but totally freak out if an animal (especially a dog) buys it.

She doesn’t have a name, so she doesn’t count on TV. I’m reminded of Galaxy Quest.

“You have a last name, Guy.”
“Do I? DO I!?!”

#19

I’ve just finished ep 4 and this is pretty much where I am. I think there is a place for the grody violence but it’s got far less to do with grody violence being awesome than I fear the show thinks it does.

The aspect of the violence I appreciate is that it’s clearly a lot of hard work for Matt. The hallway scene in season 1 and the “bigger, better” stairway scene is season 2 are effective in that they show that battling bad guys is exhausting and, if you’ll pardon the expression, punishing work. Because there’s a price to be paid, it matters that Matt commits to doing it and because the violence is up close and personal, it matters that he has doubts about it. When Matt is debating the ethics of vigilantism with Frank it’s really good that we have a clear idea of what the kinder, gentler version Matt deals out actually involves.

But introducing a new villain with an eye-spike doesn’t really do much. If it’s intended to make him look like a threat to Frank, it doesn’t do anything that actually drilling through his foot didn’t do in the actual torture scene. If it’s intended to make us think he’s dangerous generally, it doesn’t work because it’s a surprise attack against an unarmed man. It’s particularly pointless because the guy doesn’t survive the episode, so there’s no point making us think he’s someone to be wary of.

In other notes, the stairway scene was, like so many sequels, bigger but not better - in particular you could see so many more joins in the edit as the camera passed behind people’s back that the magic wasn’t there. Also, if Frank’s plan was to get tortured he really needed to factor in the impact of that on his ability to walk in the future. I know that there’s comic book levels of healing going on but if you show me a close up of a foot being drilled and want it to mean anything at all then I’m going to believe that the guy has set himself up for long-term mobility issues. Given that Frank was always going to “crack” under torture then before the drill hit the foot might have been the better tactical choice.

#20

There was a disconnect for me after Pun and DD have their first fight, and Pun leaves him laying… then he finds the exact spot on top of the building he needs to be to line up his scope on the bad guy he had been following. It’s like the fight with DD didn’t take any time, and he’s all the sudden in the exact right sniper position to tag the guy who’s been running for his life.

They’re doing Frank Miller-type shots, which is fine style-wise, but emphasizes cool-looking scenes over logistics. That’s always bugged me about Frank Miller’s stuff. He’s all about cool-looking scenes, but doesn’t give any real thought on how to connect them.

I gotta give kudos to John Bernthal. He makes me squirm in whatever role he’s playing, because he’s usually the psycho you can never talk down.