Dear Shade, please read the following, it has many logical points in regards to reincarnation:
Reincarnation and Beyond [part 1]
In August of 1976, Srila Prabhupada spent a few weeks at Bhaktivedanta
Manor, fifteen miles north of London. During that time Mike Robinson of
London Broadcasting Company interviewed him in his quarters. In their
conversation, which was broadcast shortly afterward, Srila Prabhupada
revealed that Krsna consciousness is "not some ritualistic ceremony of ‘I
believe, you believe,’ " but a profound philosophical system in which the
science of reincarnation is explained clearly and concisely.
Mike Robinson: Can you tell me what you believe–what the philosophy of the
Hare Krsna movement is?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna consciousness is not a question of belief; it
is a science. The first step is to know the difference between a living body
and a dead body. What is the difference? The difference is that when someone
dies, the spirit soul, or the living force, leaves the body. And therefore
the body is called “dead.” So, there are two things: one, this body; and the
other, the living force within the body. We speak of the living force within
the body. That is the difference between the science of Krsna consciousness,
which is spiritual, and ordinary material science. As such, in the beginning
it is very, very difficult for an ordinary man to appreciate our movement.
One must first understand that he is a soul, or something other than his
body.
Mike Robinson: And when will we understand that?
Srila Prabhupada: You can understand at any moment, but it requires a little
intelligence. For example, as a child grows, he becomes a boy, the boy
becomes a young man, the young man becomes an adult, and the adult becomes
an old man. Throughout all this time, although his body is changing from a
child to an old man, he still feels himself to be the same person, with the
same identity. Just see: the body is changing, but the occupier of the body,
the soul, is remaining the same. So we should logically conclude that when
our present body dies, we get another body. This is called transmigration of
the soul.
Mike Robinson: So when people die it is just the physical body that dies?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained very elaborately in the
Bhagavad-gita (2.20): na jayate mriyate va kadacin… na hanyate hanyamane
sarire.
Mike Robinson: Do you often quote references?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we quote many references. Krsna consciousness is a
serious education, not an ordinary religion. [To a devotee:] Find that verse
in the Bhagavad-gita.
Disciple:
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
“For the soul, there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been,
does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying, and
primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.”
Mike Robinson: Thank you very much for reading that. So can you explain to
me just a bit more? If the soul is undying, does everybody’s soul go to be
with God when they die?
Srila Prabhupada: Not necessarily. If one is qualified–if he qualifies
himself in this life to go back home, back to Godhead–then he can go. If he
does not qualify himself, then he gets another material body. And there are
8,400,000 different bodily forms. According to his desires and karma, the
laws of nature give him a suitable body. It is just like when a man
contracts some disease and then develops that disease. Is that difficult to
understand?
Mike Robinson: It’s very difficult to understand all of it.
Srila Prabhupada: Suppose somebody has contracted smallpox. So, after seven
days he develops the symptoms. What is that period called?
Mike Robinson: Incubation?
Srila Prabhupada: Incubation. So you cannot avoid it. If you have contracted
some disease it will develop, by nature’s law. Similarly, during this life
you associate with various modes of material nature, and that association
will decide what kind of body you are going to get in the next life. That is
strictly under the laws of nature. Everyone is controlled by the laws of
nature–they’re completely dependent–but out of ignorance people think that
they are free. They’re not free; they’re imagining that they’re free, but
they are completely under the laws of nature. So, your next birth will be
decided according to your activities–sinful or pious, as the case may be.
Mike Robinson: Your Grace, could you go back over that just for a minute?
You said that nobody is free. Are you saying that if we live a good life, we
in some way determine a good future for ourselves?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Mike Robinson: So we are free to choose what we believe to be important?
Religion is important, because if we believe in God and lead a good life…
Srila Prabhupada: It is not a question of belief. Do not bring in this
question of belief. It is law. For instance, there is a government. You may
believe or not believe, but if you break the law, you’ll be punished by the
government. Similarly, whether you believe or don’t believe, there is a God.
If you don’t believe in God and you independently do whatever you like, then
you’ll be punished by the laws of nature.
Mike Robinson: I see. Does it matter what religion you believe? Would it
matter if one was a devotee of Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada: It is not a question of religion. It is a question of
science. You are a spiritual being, but because you are materially
conditioned, you are under the laws of material nature. So you may believe
in the Christian religion, and I may believe in the Hindu religion, but that
does not mean that you are going to become an old man and I am not. We’re
talking of the science of growing old. This is natural law. It is not that
because you are Christian you are becoming old or because I am Hindu I am
not becoming old. Everyone is becoming old. So, similarly, all the laws of
nature are applicable to everyone. Whether you believe this religion or that
religion, it doesn’t matter.
Mike Robinson: So, you’re saying that there’s only one God controlling all
of us?
Srila Prabhupada: There’s one God, and one nature’s law, and we are all
under that nature’s law. We are controlled by the Supreme. So if we think
that we are free or that we can do anything we like, that is our
foolishness.
Mike Robinson: I see. Can you explain to me what difference it makes, being
a member of the Hare Krsna movement?
Srila Prabhupada: The Hare Krsna movement is meant for those who are serious
about understanding this science. There’s no question of our being some
sectarian group. No. Anyone can join. Students in college can be admitted.
You may be a Christian, you may be a Hindu, you may be a Muhammadan–it
doesn’t matter. The Krsna consciousness movement admits anyone who wants to
understand the science of God.
Mike Robinson: And what difference would it make to someone–being taught
how to be a Hare Krsna person?
Srila Prabhupada: His real education would begin. The first thing is to
understand that you are a spirit soul. And because you are a spirit soul,
you are changing your body. This is the ABC of spiritual understanding. So,
when your body is finished, annihilated, you are not finished. You get
another body, just as you may change your coat and shirt. If you come to see
me tomorrow wearing a different shirt and a different coat, does that mean
you are a different person? No. Similarly, each time you die you change
bodies, but you, the spirit soul within the body, remain the same. This
point has to be understood; then one can make further progress in the
science of Krsna consciousness.
Mike Robinson: I am beginning to understand, but what I’m finding difficult
is how this ties in with the large numbers of your people we see handing out
Hare Krsna literature on Oxford Street.
Srila Prabhupada: This literature is meant to convince people about the need
for spiritual life.
Mike Robinson: And you’re really not concerned whether or not they join the
Hare Krsna movement?
Srila Prabhupada: It doesn’t matter. Our mission is to educate them. People
are in ignorance; they are living in a fool’s paradise, thinking that when
their body is finished, everything is finished. That is foolishness.
Mike Robinson: And you are basically just concerned to tell them that there
is a spiritual dimension to life?
Srila Prabhupada: Our first concern is to tell you that you are not this
body, that the body is your covering (your shirt and coat) and that within
the body you are living.
Mike Robinson: Yes, I think I’ve got that now. If we could go on from
there–you said that how you lived made a difference in your life after
death, that there are natural laws that determine your next life. How does
the process of transmigration work?
Srila Prabhupada: The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible
to our material eyes. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the
gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat, and so forth,
the subtle body of mind, intelligence, and ego goes on working. So at the
time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another
gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can
see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being
carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the
process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the
condition of the mind at the time of death, the minute spirit soul enters
into the womb of a particular mother through the semen of a father, and then
the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother. It may be a
human being, it may be a cat, a dog, or anything.
Mike Robinson: Are you saying that we were something else before this life?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Mike Robinson: And we keep corning back as something else the next time?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because you are eternal. According to your work, you
are simply changing bodies. Therefore, you should want to know how to stop
this business, how you can remain in your original, spiritual body. That is
Krsna consciousness.
Mike Robinson: I see. So if I become Krsna conscious, I wouldn’t risk coming
back as a dog?
Srila Prabhupada: No. [To a devotee:] Find this verse: janma karma ca me
divyam…
Disciple:
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
“One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities
does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material
world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.” (Bg. 4.9)
Srila Prabhupada: God is saying, “Anyone who understands Me is free from
birth and death.” But one cannot understand God by materialistic
speculation. That is not possible. One must first come to the spiritual
platform. Then he gets the intelligence required to understand God. And when
he understands God, he does not get any more material bodies. He goes back
home, back to Godhead. He lives eternally; no more change of body.
Mike Robinson: I see. Now, you’ve read twice from your scriptures. Where do
these scriptures come from? Can you briefly explain that?
Srila Prabhupada: Our scriptures are coming from Vedic literature, which has
existed from the beginning of creation. Whenever there is some new material
creation–like this microphone, for instance–there is also some literature
explaining how to deal with it. Isn’t that so?
Mike Robinson: Yes, that’s right, there is.
Srila Prabhupada: And that literature comes along with the creation of the
microphone.
Mike Robinson: That’s right, yes.
Srila Prabhupada: So, similarly, the Vedic literature comes along with the
cosmic creation, to explain how to deal with it.
Mike Robinson: I see. So, these scriptures have been in existence since the
beginning of creation. Now, if we could move on to something I believe you
feel very strongly about. What is the main difference between Krsna
consciousness and the other Eastern disciplines being taught in the West?
Srila Prabhupada: The difference is that we are following the original
literature, and they are manufacturing their own literature. That is the
difference. When there is some question on spiritual matters, you must
consult the original literature, not some literature issued by a bogus man.
Mike Robinson: What about the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna…
Srila Prabhupada: Chanting Hare Krsna is the easiest process by which to
become purified, especially in this age, when people are so dull that they
cannot very easily understand spiritual knowledge. If one chants Hare Krsna,
then his intelligence becomes purified, and he can understand spiritual
things.
Mike Robinson: Can you tell me how you are guided in what you do?
Srila Prabhupada: We take guidance from the Vedic literature.
Mike Robinson: From the scriptures you quoted?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it’s all in the literatures. We’re explaining them in
English. But we’re not manufacturing anything. If we were to manufacture
knowledge, then everything would be spoiled. The Vedic literature is
something like the literature that explains how to set up this microphone.
It says, “Do it like this: some of the screws should be on this side, around
the metal.” You cannot make any change; then everything would be spoiled.
Similarly, because we are not manufacturing anything, one simply has to read
one of our books, and he receives real spiritual knowledge.
Mike Robinson: How can the philosophy of Krsna consciousness affect the way
people live?
Srila Prabhupada: It can relieve people’s suffering. People are suffering
because they are misunderstanding themselves to be the body. If you think
that you are your coat and shirt, and you very carefully wash the coat and
shirt but you forget to eat, will you be happy?
Mike Robinson: No, I wouldn’t.
Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, everyone is simply washing the “coat and shirt”
of the body, but forgetting about the soul within the body. They have no
information about what is within the “coat and shirt” of the body. Ask
anybody what he is, and he will say, “Yes, I am an Englishman,” or “I am an
Indian.” And if we say, “I can see you have an English or an Indian body,
but what are you?”–that he cannot say.
Mike Robinson: I see.
Srila Prabhupada: The whole modern civilization is operating on the
misunderstanding that the body is the self (dehatma-buddhi). This is the
mentality of the cats and dogs. Suppose I try to enter England, and you stop
me at the border: “I am an Englishman,” you say, “but you are Indian. Why
have you come here?” And the dog barks, “Rau, rau, why are you coming?” So
what is the difference in mentality? The dog is thinking he’s a dog and I’m
a stranger, and you are thinking you are an Englishman and I am an Indian.
There’s no difference in mentality. So if you keep people in the darkness of
a dog’s mentality and declare that you are advancing in civilization, you
are most misguided.
Mike Robinson: Now, moving on to another point, I gather the Hare Krsna
movement has some concern for areas of the world where there is suffering.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we have the only concern. Others are simply avoiding
the main problems: birth, old age, disease, and death. Others have no
solutions to these problems; they are simply talking all kinds of nonsense.
People are being misguided. They are being kept in darkness. Let us start to
give them some light.
Mike Robinson: Yes, but apart from giving spiritual enlightenment, are you
also concerned for people’s physical well-being?
Srila Prabhupada: Physical well-being automatically follows spiritual
well-being.
Mike Robinson: And how does that work?
Srila Prabhupada: Suppose you have a car. So, naturally, you take care of
the car as well as yourself. But you don’t identify yourself as the car. You
don’t say, “I am this car.” That is nonsense. But this is what people are
doing. They are taking too much care of the bodily “car,” thinking that the
car is the self. They forget that they are different from the car, that they
are a spirit soul and have a different business. Just as no one can drink
petrol and be satisfied, no one can be satisfied with bodily activities. One
must find out the proper food for the soul. If a man thinks, “I am a car,
and I must drink this petrol,” he is considered insane. Similarly, one who
thinks that he is this body, and who tries to become happy with bodily
pleasures, is also insane.
Mike Robinson: There’s a quote here that I’d like you to comment on. I was
given this literature by your people before I came, and one of the things
you say here is that “Religion without a rational basis is just sentiment.”
Can you explain that?
Srila Prabhupada: Most religious people say, “We believe…” But what is the
value of this belief? You may believe something which is not actually
correct. For instance, some of the Christian people say, “We believe that
animals have no soul.” That is not correct. They believe animals have no
soul because they want to eat the animals, but actually animals do have a
soul.
Mike Robinson: How do you know that the animal has a soul?
Srila Prabhupada: You can know, also. Here is the scientific proof: the
animal eats, you eat; the animal sleeps, you sleep; the animal has sex, you
have sex; the animal also defends, you also defend. Then what is the
difference between you and the animal? How can you say that you have a soul
but the animal doesn’t?
Mike Robinson: I can see that completely. But the Christian scriptures
say…
Srila Prabhupada: Don’t bring in any scriptures; this is a commonsense
topic. Try to understand. The animal is eating, you are eating; the animal
is sleeping, you are sleeping; the animal is defending, you are defending;
the animal is having sex, you are having sex; the animals have children, you
have children; they have a living place, you have a living place. If the
animal’s body is cut, there is blood; if your body is cut, there is blood.
So, all these similarities are there. Now, why do you deny this one
similarity, the presence of the soul? This is not logical. You have studied
logic? In logic there is something called analogy. Analogy means drawing a
conclusion by finding many points of similarity. If there are so many points
of similarity between human beings and animals, why deny one similarity?
That is not logic. That is not science.
Mike Robinson: But if you take that argument and use it the other way…
Srila Prabhupada: There is no other way. If you are not arguing on the basis
of logic, then you are not rational.
Mike Robinson: Yes, OK, but let’s start from another hypothesis. Suppose we
assume that a human being has no soul…
Srila Prabhupada: Then you must explain the difference between a living body
and a dead body. I have already explained this at the beginning. As soon as
the living force, the soul, is gone from the body, even the most beautiful
body has no value. No one cares for it; it’s thrown away. But now, if I
touch your hair, there will be a fight. That is the distinction between a
living body and a dead body. In a living body the soul is there, and in a
dead body the soul is not there. As soon as the soul leaves the body, the
body has no value. It is useless. This is very simple to understand, but
even the biggest so-called scientists and philosophers are too dullheaded to
understand it. Modern society is in a very abominable condition. There is no
man with a real brain.
