That’s a good point, and I sit corrected. Affirmative action, insofar as it is incorporated into the law (for the government) or institutional policy (for that institution) is an example of institutional racism.
Not sure I agree with your other examples, but on this one, good call.
Regards,
Shodan
No, but it would be racist to refuse to hire a black person to babysit your kids, because there are black people out there that are sex offenders.
So even though black men would be rejected at twice the rate of white men for the job, it would not be racist?
Would it be evidence of systemic racism or bias?
I think black people getting rejected for jobs *because they are black *is because whoever is in charge of hiring (an individual) is biased, either conscious or unconcious.
Do I think a lot of individual racism could be traced back to blatant institutional racism of the past? Yeah probably. I also think that every generation is, on average, less “racist” by modern standards, than the last. I do not think that racism will every truly be totally gone (I think that’s impossible due to inherent tribalism of humans), but I do think that it will diminish over time naturally and the statistics will probably bear that out.
Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
Higher rates of criminal conviction, lower rates of educational achievement, lower numbers who meet the requirements - any number of reasons. It depends on the job.
Regards,
Shodan
How would those explain the results of resume and in person audits?
Because you reject all sex offenders from the babysitting posts, black men are sex offenders at twice the rate white men are.
And what would that have to do with employment?
If I post an ad for a babysitter, and part of that ad says “No sex offenders”, then I shouldn’t be getting any sex offenders at all.
If I then assume that, because (according to you, which I will accept for now with no cite) black men are sex offenders at twice the rate, I use that to justify rejecting black men, then that would be racist.
I’m not entirely sure where you are losing me here. I consider this to be extremely straightforward. It’s not even nuanced. You don’t discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that’s racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
The beginnings of the drug war are unmistakably racist in the same way affirmative action is today. Those laws are no longer supported using that rhetoric, but the outcome is no different. That is why I consider mass incarceration to be an example of systemic racism.
Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don’t look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
Racism.
avoiding an area because it has a lot of people that don’t look like you is racism
avoiding an area because its high poverty and high crime is risk assessment
People often conflate the two, or think the first is ok because the second is ok.
If you rejected all sex offenders then assuming similar interest levels there would be significantly more white men employed in the babysitting industry. Some people would see this as prima facia evidence of systemic bias against black men in the babysitting industry. Yet this would be achieved with no racial bias and if racism were magically erased from the heart of every person in the country it would persist.
This is an example of why different outcomes being produced with no bias and a reason why it is not enough to point to disparate outcomes to prove systemic bias. It also shows a situation where fighting phantasms such as systemic bias are a waste of time.
Mass incarceration is a different issue than the drug war. If you released every person in jail for a drug offense there would still be 80% of the prisoners left and the demographics would not be any different.
Yes, but let’s say you didn’t have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you’re lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
“Some people”? Who? I’m not sure I agree with your premise. I’m feeling more than a little straw here.
Now, there is also the fact that I have taken as given that your statement that black men commit sex offenses at twice the rate of white men without checking of asking for a cite. I can accept that the number of black men convicted for sex offenses is twice that of white men, but I’m not sure if that actually translates into that they commit it twice as often. Just as with many crimes, white people tend to get away with them, while black men don’t.
So, at this point, we are looking at possible racial bias in the justice system that is causing these disparate outcomes.
Even past that, even if black and white are prosecuted at the same proportional rate as the commision of the crime (which I do not really believe), you still have the fact that poverty increases crime, and black men are more likely to be impoverished due to both current and historical racism.
Right, but your logic is the logic that racists use to justify their racism against individuals. Lets say that the genetic racists are right, and being black makes you twice as likely to commit sexual offenses (I thoroughly disagree with this position), does that mean that that you should treat an individual black man with more suspicion than you would a white man?
But, there is a little straw there as well. We don’t look at outcomes, we look at opportunities. And there are definitely more opportunities granted to the white straight man than to other demographics.
Are you saying that there are no victims of systemic bias, or that fighting for them is a waste of time?
Depends. Is it because of the black people or because of the run down buildings?
There are poor white areas too. Correlating black people with crime is wrong. Poverty and crime is a vastly higher correlation. How would you feel if people made such snap judgments about you just because of how you look?
If you see black people and your first reaction is to be scared and hurry out of there, you might just be a racist.
Are you talking about poverty, or are you talking about black people?
We can break this down into two different questions.
If you are a black person, and you find yourself in a place with a lot of white people, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
If you are a person, and you find yourself in a place with some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
I think they are saying that if you have a “No Sex Offender” policy, and black people are twice as likely to be sex offenders, then your policy is going to affect more black people than white people. And that makes it a racist policy if you are only looking at outcomes.