Dating someone whose worldview on race/ethnicity is different than yours?

Well, this may never go anywhere for other reasons, but it got me thinking anyway. Just got back from a date with a Nice Jewish Boy from the former Soviet Union, and though he was nice, he has a worldview common to people, especially Jewish people, who grew up in that neck of the woods. Specifically, he believes that Jewish people belong with Jewish people when it comes to long-term relationships, because most, but not all non-Jews will eventually be incompatible in long-term relationships with Jews.

I only spent a couple of hours with the guy, and we didn’t talk exclusively about this one issue by any means, so I haven’t exhausted my interrogation of him on the subject. Because I’m (at least nominally and culturally) Jewish and so he doesn’t see any barriers to dating me at this point, it should be no sweat off my back, right? However, this world view doesn’t necessarily match either my philosophy of inter-ethnic/interfaith (to whatever extent I have any religious faith at all) relations, because in my experience it generally starts to edge into racism territory.

So far he hasn’t said anything outright racist (unlike one former Soviet ex of mine, who literally told me he didn’t like to go out to hear music in Chicago “because there are blacks and Mexicans, and they’re dirty” - he didn’t last long after that). But it still sets off my humanist radar. I’ve dated probably half Jewish guys and half non-Jewish guys (who have been pretty much all over the map, ethnoculturally speaking), and so far have seen almost zero correlation between ethnicity and compatibility long-term (not that I’ve got a statistical sample going anyway, mind you). So given that the guy isn’t a complete moron, and so far seems perfectly nice and intelligent in other respects, at least enough to have picked up that I like to hang out with open-minded people (and he passed my Chechen tolerance quiz, which most former Soviets don’t), how do I tease out whether he is a racist, albeit one who hides it well, vs. someone who just believes in the preservation of Jewish culture, which I don’t (always necessarily) have a problem with?

I hope this makes sense. If not, I blame the cold medicine. Please discuss, free-associating if necessary; lord knows I sure have.

Whether he’s a closet racist or not, there’s still a potential problem with his belief system if you’re thinking of him as a long-term prospect: is he so strongly opposed to interfaith relationships that he would create problems for his children if they fell in love with non-Jews?

Good point. I have no idea whether he’s a long-term prospect in any case for unrelated reasons, but something to keep in mind. (Who the hell knows whether I will ever have kids, but I agree with you philosophically.)

Maybe I’ll ask him something I asked my grandmother, with pronouns switched of course: Which would make you more upset, if I told you I were marrying a Palestinian, or if I told you I were marrying a woman? (She laughed and said, “What the hell kind of question is that?” and served me more dessert. Pretty good answer.)

I draw the line at a person’s treatment of other people and their relationships. He thinks that Jews will ultimately not be compatible with non-Jews? That’s his opinion. He personally doesn’t want to date non-Jews? Again, his opinion. He tells other people how to run their lives, criticizes them, or is contemptuous of them? That’s a danger sign – and as ruadh said, indicates how he will treat any potential children, as well as your friends and relatives, should they get involved in inter-religious relationships.

I know Jews who only want to date Jews, and that’s not an issue for me. It’s when they don’t want any other Jews dating non-Jews that I have a problem.

Eva,

Sorry that I can’t add much regarding this situation, as I don’t have much experience dating Jewish men. But I had to ask what your “test” is. Incredibly curious!

Having dated former Soviets, I know what a challenge it can be understanding each other culturally. But, also very rewarding.

Wish you well.

Eva, I think your new friend is just sharing his views regarding preservation of Jewish life. If you want to plumb his ideas regarding racism, then that’s another conversation. You know, his ideas are not uncommon, nor are they morally troubling. I happen to agree with him. Historically Jews are encouraged to marry other Jews. Nothing wrong with self-preservation. Current social research seems to indicate that it takes three generations for Jews to lose their cultural and religious identity if they fully assimilate. And intermarriage is one big step towards total assimilation.

I am curious about both of your definitions of “long term” regarding relationships. Are we talking 2-3 years or 15-25 years or the time when children happen? When children enter a family is when the whole Jewish vs. not-Jewish discussion can become challenging to relationships.

The Chechen test: basically, I ask “what do you think about the behavior of the Russian central government toward Chechnya and the Chechens over the past, say, 10 years?”

A scary number answer something along the lines of, “The Chechens are a bunch of thieving, corrupt, murdering savages, and they need some central government control, or the place would be a worse wreck than it already is.”

This guy came up with something slightly more balanced, along the lines of “well, there have been abuses on both sides,” and then changed the subject. I don’t know whether he realized it was a litmus test of mine. But then I recognize it’s a rather unusual litmus test.

Really, the race issue is one of the few where I still feel a major cultural gap with your average Jew from the FSU, but then the only thing separating us is generally that my great-grandparents turned right at the end of the 19th century, and theirs turned left (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Simulpost with Geoduck:

well, the issues of religious observance vs,. cultural preservation vs. egalitarianism, as you may have guessed, are rather mixed-up for me. I’m all for preserving cultural identities, but those come in a whole bunch of levels.

It’s hard to argue against intermariage, etc. if a) you don’t believe in the religious aspect pretty much at all, and b) if you have issues with considering your own cultural traditions to be in any way superior to a zillion other sets of cultural traditions. All of them (OK, well, maybe most of them) are unique, beautiful, and worth preserving, and I find it difficult to accept that almost all of my close friends and loved ones who are not related by blood are somehow not good enough to be related by marriage. Are my Catholic, or pagan, or Muslim friends somehow less worthy of having their traditions carried on than I am of having my family’s traditions carried on? Especially if I don’t subscribe to the theology that the traditions are based on? That’s just bizarre to me.

And yet in a way, that’s what this guy is saying.

Oh, and as for long-term vs. short-term? At 35, with some multi-year relationsips under my belt, I think I’m much more inclined (at least, I hope I am) to rule people out more quickly than I did when I was 18 if I think they aren’t viable long-term partners. I pay attention to different things than I did when I was 18. Yes, I can think of more than one person I should have broken up with long before I did…one, not because he was Muslim, but because he had very, very different views on gender roles than I did…and one, not because he was Jewish, but because he had very different views on respect and valuing others’ opinions than I did. And one, even though I still believe he is a wonderful person and we see eye-to-eye on 99.9% of everything, and even though he is a bonafide Nice Jewish Guy, but something just wasn’t working.

Never having been married or had kids, it’s hard for me to say whether kids would be the litmus test of compatibility. But I look around at all the couples I have known, and I think the religious compatibility (or whatever you want to call it) is just one element in a long list, and for me personally, there are a lot of things ohigher on the list than whether he is an “M.O.T.”, as my dad would call it (Member of the Tribe). And heck, it sure didn’t help my parents.

Hope I’m still making sense here.

Eva,

I think that your discussions with this guy qualify as a “no test” score at this point… Yes, all cultures are worth presserving, but I (and apparently, your friend as well) think that I should do my bit to preserve my culture first, before I work on someone else’s.
If I were (theoretically) “in the market”, as it were, for a mate, I would be looking for a Jewish woman - or, better yet, for a non-Jewish woman willing to join the Jewish culture ;j Let the members of other cultures preserve their cultures. I’d work on mine…

And you’ll just have to ask your friend point blank about racism, xenophobia etc… 'cos you haven’t yet, not really.

IMHO, My 2¢, YMMV, etc…

Dani

I spent a couple months on Match.com looking for dating possibilities. On the profile that each member creates their is a “describe the person you want to date” section, which has some short essay but mostly lots of multiple choice questions.

One of the mutiple choice questions is about race/ethnic background. You can specify a single race/ethnicity, name a few races/ethnicities that you are open to, or you can leave it blank.

Anytime I saw a profile of a woman who I really thought I could be interested in I check to see how she answered.

It was ALWAYS a MAJOR TURN-OFF if she didn’t leave this one blank (or check every option). That was all I needed to skip her over and look for someone else.

That’s just me.

.

I dunno, bienville. I can see somebody thinking that, from their own past experience, they’re unlikely to be physically attracted to people of particular races. That doesn’t seem any worse to me than someone specifying (say) the weight range of their potential partners.

There’s nothing wrong with not finding EVERY racial type physically attractive you know. It’s only bad if you exclude a truly wonderful person from your pool of choices based soley on race. It doesn’t seem overly shallow to me to have preferences. It’s no different that any other type of physical preference.