Daughter calls her mom a bitch---is that 100% bad?

Great Debates
41

I don’t know the dynamics of the family in question, but I can tell you that in my family, calling other family members names is NOT acceptable.

My kids are welcome to voice their opinions, to disagree, to argue their points, as long as they are civil about it. The general rule is pretty simple: I don’t call them names or treat them like idiots, they do the same for me. If my child called me a bitch, I’d smack his/her mouth, undoubtedly. And my kids KNOW that’s what I’d do–I haven’t spanked any of them more than a few times in their lives, but they know that there are certain behaviors that, if you use them with other people, are going to end with you getting a deserved slap in the face, just as there are certain behaviors that will land you in jail or get you kicked out of school.

Why on earth didn’t the mom handle this? I would be pissed if my partner intervened in such a way–this is MY child, MY argument, I’m a grown woman, and I get highly annoyed with another adult steps in and takes over the behavior management. (This is a soapbox topic for me, so I won’t even get started.)

The dad was abusive and doesn’t sound like the type of man I’d want parenting my children.

On preview, re: catsix:
I have never called my mother a bitch to her face. Not because I’ve never thought she was being bitchy, but because if I think that, I can find a better, more effective way to deal with her behavior and maybe change it. Maybe you can’t find a better way, but my own kids should be able to, and I expect them to be intelligent and mature enough to do it.

And re: cheesesteak:
I guess my take on it is this: Her dad shouldn’t have done what he did, but I would support her mom smacking her mouth. Yes, she’s 18, but she’s living in that home and (I’m assuming) being supported by those parents, and unless she’s willing to move out and be self-supporting, she should avoid name-calling. Now, her mom may have called her a cheap slut first, we don’t know, and the “bitch” may have been a response to that or to something equally provactive. In which case, I’d label the whole family as co-abusers and give up the arguments.

42

Abuse is never right, and it’s my opinion that both the daughter and the father were abusive (hmmm, I wonder who she learned it from?). By spanking her, he is showing her it’s okay for a man to physically abuse her. I wonder what type of man she’ll end up with?

As for what she called her mother, apparently nobody ever taught her that you criticize people’s actions instead of calling them names, and you don’t call them nasty words.

43

I’m with Annie. ( wishful thinkin’… :wink: )

  1. She’s 18. She could have had him arrested.
  2. Breaking blood vessels in the palms involves a palm strike of such velocity against a fairly firm surface that, to do it against the buttocks involves force that likely left bruising on the victim’s buttocks. Down south that may be showin’ respek, up here it’s called assault and battery. Were I to learn of this from the 18 year old, I would encourage her to press charges.
  3. She will marry a man who says he loves her and it’s only for the best and she has it coming to her, then beats her ass. Apparently that is what she has been taught is acceptable.
  4. Homebrew is correct, IMHO.

To pull out that accurate old chestnut, children learn what they live. I have never called someone close to me a bitch. It wouldn’t occur to me to be so verbally abusive.

And, as said up there, wonder where she learned it?.. :rolleyes:

44

I could understand if the mom slapped the daughter in response to being called a bitch, that’s a reaction and limited in scope. Perhaps not a great decision, but understandable.

I don’t like the idea that the finances determine who can and cannot be legitimately hit. As if a person living at home has less personal rights than a person who lives elsewhere. I let you live in my home, so I can punch you in the face? No thanks.

If the daughter is disrespectful, discuss it, if she doesn’t straighten out, kick her ass to the curb (figuratively, of course). The fact that the parents support her gives them the right to pull that support, not to beat her.

45

OK, there are gender dynamics here that I don’t have experience with given that I’m a guy, but IMO there’s a lot of chicken-littling in the thread about the father’s reaction. It was horribe, certainly, but if this was an isolated incident I’m inclined to say it’s not abuse. There ain’t nobody who’s never lost their shit before, and having your wife called a bitch is one of the least-absurd reasons to do so. (The last of the maybe half-dozen times my mother hit me it was because I ate all her fruit salad.) It trivializes people who are victims of truly abusive relationships to say that their suffering is the same as a woman who got hit once – for too long, certainly, but not viciously. The fact that the father bragged about it is more disturbing.

As for calling people in the family names, meh. There are certain terms beyond the pale (well, one, and it starts with “C”), but in my house swear words are just words. One of the proudest moments in my family was when my 11-year-old sister called the after-school daycare provider a bitch. Why? Because she was being a bitch. Authority has no right to demand respect – that is something that may only be earned – because if you’re a fuck-up, why should I listen to you and get myself harmed in the process? And if that is so, why should parents or older sibs be any different? I never want someone to refrain from calling me an asshole if I deserve it, or I’ll never get any better.

–Cliffy

46

That’s absurd; no one is suggesting anything about punching anyone in the face. I hope we can all agree that face punching is way out of line. No one in this thread has mentioned anything about punching a child in the face.

Also, spanking a child (18 or not) for a complete lack of respect isn’t signifying that the child has fewer personal rights. That’s just silly. However, I do admit that I hold the view that a child’s rights are less than a parent who works hard to pay the bills and feed and clothe said child. If you want complete and unrestrained freedom and full adult rights, they’re yours when you are able to sustain yourself financially. If you live under your parents roof and eat the food that mom and dad’s 40+ hour work week provides, you had better be aware that a certain level of respect is automatically required. To me, this is just common sense, and I wouldn’t live in a home where I bust my ass to support my children only to have one of them show me disrespect on that level.

Sure, the child could press charges on the father. The father could get into hot water. Then there is a situation where the child doesn’t live there anymore. Maybe they live in a foster home now. Ask a child which they prefer. I’ll take a much deserved ass whipping any day over having to move out because I pressed charges against dad (who more than likely blistered his hand on her jeans than anything else) as a direct result to a deserved spanking.

And please, do not pretend to assume how this will destroy the daughter’s choices in men down the road. Just because you are spanked doesn’t destroy your ability to function as a human being somewhere later on. The human mind is much more resilient and complex than that. My mother beat me like a piñata once when I mocked her once. I don’t go looking for women to beat me now, and one never has…

Well, unless I couldn’t remember the safe word.

47

Grew up in the South. Once, at the nadir of a nasty custody fight my parents had over us kids, as my mother was trying to guilt me into living with her so that she could get higher child-support payments from my dad, I shouted, “Fuck you!” at her.

It was great.

No, it wasn’t great, but it stopped the guilt trip, a guilt trip which had been going on for about eighteen months by that point; and it finally broke through to my mom what she was doing to me and to all of us kids by using us as pawns in the struggle. (My father, much better at the game than she, was able to continue using us as pawns without our realizing it for several more years). So, although in a sense I regret having yelled at her, in another sense I think it was absolutely necessary for our relationship not to be permanently soured by the whole deal.

I realized at a fairly young age that I was more fit than my parents, and that if they tried to hit me, I could hit back harder. I think this was a perfectly healthy realization to have: from that point on, my parents couldn’t take my obedience for granted, but had to give me reasons. And, knowing the reasons for their demands, I could understand the adult world faster, internalize these reasons.

Arbitrary commands just beg to be broken. Explained commands are far likelier to be internalized.

Not all kids will work this way. But if my dad had tried to hit me, I would’ve fought back; and if I failed, I would’ve pressed charges.

Daniel

48

I don’t disagree with your opinion that financial support doesn’t mean a right to beat someone, Cheesesteak. I’m just pointing out that if she is still living with her parents as a child (as opposed to renting the apt over the garage), she’s not completely in the “I can say/do/act however I please” group quite yet, and frankly, I don’t think my kid will ever get mature/self-supporting enough to get away with calling me a bitch to my face. I think her dad was wrong for a number of reasons. I also think she was wrong for a number of reasons.

If I call ANYone–you, my momma, a stranger on the street–a bitch, I fully expect to get my face slapped. So I guess I put the mouth-smack very close to being a natural consequence for name-calling of that caliber. That’s why I highly, HIGHLY recommend to my kids that they refrain from calling people names…you can’t behave that way and expect a pass on it every time.

I don’t think the daughter is doomed to a life of abuse and abusive partners by this one act of abuse on Dad’s part. However, if it’s a pattern with the family, if this type of fight is the norm for them, then I’d predict problems down the line.

49

So you’ll only press charges if you lose the fight? I’m sorry, but I can’t respect that.

If you’re physically strong enough to handle yourself in a fight with your father, then you need to be mentally strong enough to handle having your ass handed to you without involving the law in a situation you probably helped to escalate. That’s part of being a man, IMHO.

50

Exactly.

51

This family is screwed up on so many levels there’s no fixing it. They’re doomed.

“Spanking” an 18-year-old girl should, frankly, be cause for arrest and imprisonment. The father’s a nutball. Who gives a shit if it’s an isolated case? It’s assault. It’s also incestuously creepy. Whether she’s living under her parents’ roof or not is not relevant with respect to the fact that a crime was committed, and that a man who would do such a thing is either a dirty-minded creep or a psycho.

A daughter who calls her mother a “bitch” is an insufferable twit, and “women settle their difference with words” is a lame and stupid excuse. Frankly, I can’t think of any situation where a woman or man needs to use the word “bitch” in someone’s face. Screaming and ranting is what babies do, not adults.

Though I have the feeling the mother probably IS a bitch, given what the father’s like. She should have called the cops.

What a nightmarish household of horrors.

52

That’s okay; I think I can cope. Note, however, that I’m discussing what I WOULD have done, not what I WILL do. I’m describing what I WOULD have done at that age.

Today if my father assaulted me, I’d defend myself (albeit without trying to hurt him), and try to figure out afterward what the hell he was thinking. I’d decide on pressing charges after I knew what was going on.

Yeah. For me, being a man entails having a penis and being 18. There’s neither honor nor shame in being a man.

There’s honor in being a good person, however, and there’s shame in being a bad person. And initiating violence is part of being a bad person, and defending oneself is not part of being a good or bad person.

So it’s totally okay with me if you don’t respect that.

Daniel

53

When I was 26, recently out of grad school, looking for a job, and living with my parents, would it have been acceptable for my dad to spank me? I hope not, and the only difference here is 8 years of age.

Not that I think there shouldn’t be consequences for mouthing off to the “hand that feeds you”. I just think the concept of spanking has to be left behind (heh) before the kid is old enough to drive. I also think she should be allowed to say what she pleases, as long as she understands that she will face the consequences.

BTW, I’ve been punched in the face, opened a thread about it about 9 months ago… Hearing this description, I’d rather be punched in the face again than suffer through being pinned down and spanked like this girl. Being punched hurts and is disturbing, being spanked hurts and is humiliating.

54

Hear, hear. Violent criminals like this asshole should not be in a position of power over anyone.

55

Respectfully, I don’t see it that way. Being 18 and sporting a penis makes you an adult male (give or take the time it takes you to become an adult if 18 is too soon or too late for your development). Being a man always meant a little more to me. As an example, any male can get a woman pregnant. It takes a man to be a father and a husband. Admittedly this is from my bullshit ‘genteel southern upbringing’, so your take may be different.

56

Yeah–it’s a matter of semantics, I guess, but I don’t really see much percentage in assigning gender roles to specific types of ethical behavior. It’s easier to admit that Idi Amin is a man than to try to come up with some definition of manhood that excludes cannibalism and brutal political oppression, for example. Same thing with having a kid: it’s easier to say that there’s a bunch of men who are deadbeat dads than to say that these deadbeat dads aren’t men.

Being a man is a biological thing for me, and it’s not based on whether you respect your dad, can win a fight with him, or would utilize law enforcement to protect yourself from violent family members. That’s neither a good thing nor a bad thing: it’s just that the ethics of all those things must be resolved separately.

Daniel

57

Wow. After reading the OP, I can’t believe the fact that an emotional teenage girl used the word “bitch” is even being discussed. And fighting with her mother? Gasp.
The fact that this guy gave all the gory details and maybe even bragged about what he did (he was, after all, “The Man”) makes me think that this wasn’t an isolated incident. People do not break down doors and spank 18-year-old girls unless it’s part of a snuff film. Calling someone a bitch doesn’t even show up on the radar next to that. It’s a bit like American movies- drop too many f-bombs (or male nudity) and it’s rated R. Blow up some buildings and have women bound and tortured and it might make it to PG-13.
I agree with the poster who said this girl’s being set up for an abusive boyfriend. If this is what she’s being taught to respect, she’ll be “respecting” a long line of deadbeats all the way to the women’s shelter. If someone I knew told me the same story and didn’t follow it up with a request for a good therapist, I would have serious problems with him and might involve the authorities (or at least put him in his place- minus physical volence).

58

Well the whole legal adult thing rings hollow to me. If she had been 17 would your opinion have changed? I agree that many of the issues that created this problem should have been dealt with a long time ago, but that’s no reason to automatically assume physical discipline won’t work. Plus, since there is no mention of this being a regular thing, I doubt there will be any long term fallout. Most people aren’t that fragile, and most people will learn a lot from an ass kicking. Despite what you may think, a lot of it is positive.

I have a hypothetical question for the people who are saying this guy should be in jail. If man is in a bar and someone starts talking trash to him. He asks him to stop politely numerous times, but the guy keeps taunting him. The man responds by punching the guy in the face. Of course this is illegal, but is it wrong?

I contend it is not. I say the jerk got what he deserves. If you decide to say something to someone to deliberately provoke them, then you should be prepared for the person to kick your ass. I understand that the rule of law cannot operate that way, but I wouldn’t go as far to say that it’s always wrong to respond physically. Some people have no respect for others, and need their asses kicked. This girl seems like she might be one of them.

59

Brickbacon, your example is not analgous to the one we’re discussing. In order for it to approximate the incident at hand, the guy would have had to deliver a prolonged beating that left him with damage to his own hand, and required that he break down some presumably wooden barrier in such a rage that he was unaware of it.

Try again. You’re minimizing the extent of what he did, which was deliver such a prolonged beating that he injured himself.

60

Prepared, yes. In the same sense that you should be prepared to get jumped by a mugger if you’re walking down a dark alley in the middle of the night. But it isn’t right in either case. If someone insults you with his mouth, and you respond with your fist, that makes you a violent jerk.