DC Comics Crisis Fallout Revisited

The comics history thread got me thinking.

I have never much been into comics. As a kid, I had a 40 year compendium of Batman that I loved (Batman from the 30s to the 70s, it was called), and ended up with a few random issues of Justice League, Spiderman, and the Invaders from prizes at birthday parties and such, but have never been a collector.

Until the Crisis on Infinite Earths miniseries by DC in the 80s. I was fascinated by the sheer number of characters involved, and the plotline was certainly original. Got eleven of the twelve issues (Damn you, Issue #2!)

However, I recall that their whole point was to get away from their parallel universes that they had created over the years. I also recall that DC followed this up with the DC challenge series (which got me right back off comics again), in which one set of artists re-invoked the multiverse idea as a way to get out of a cliffhanger. Hmm, could these people really stick to their guns?

Which brings up the thought: you can take the multiverse out of the books, but can you take the books out of the multiverse? I heard tell in later years of four simultaneous mystery Supermans, and I wonder if DC really mended their ways.

So, comics fans: Did DC’s Crisis have any lasting effects, were they for the better in the end?

I’m a DC junkie but I’ve been away for teh past few years, and am only revently returning. So I’m a bit out of the loop.

The four Supermen weren’t involved with any multiverse in any way. They popped up after Superman was killed by Doomsday. One, now called Superboy, was supposedly a clone (later revealed that he wasn’t a clone of Superman, just a clone of someone else given the closest Superman powers they could come up with, but recently it’s been revealed that he is a clone of both Superman and Lex Luthor). Another, called the Man of Steel, or simply Steel, was just a guy in powered armor who wore an “S” shield to honor Superman. (I’ll put the last two in Spoilers) The third was an intelligent Kryptonian artifact called the Eradicator, that was deluded into thinking it was Superman, he actually was (accidentally) responsible for reviving the real Superman, by dragging the corpse to the fortress of solitude where it could be regenerated. The Fourth, a cyborg, was made to seem the most likely canidate, but he turned out to be an evil imposter.

However, DC did officially bring back a multiverse with a concept called Hypertime, in a miniseries called “The Kingdom” (ostenibly the sequel to the now-classic Kingdom Come elseworlds seried). A baddie from the future travels back in time, killing Superman day by day in reverse chronological order (April 4, 2030, then April 3, 2030). The reuslting paradox should have ripped time apart, but nothing happened. Turns out, history is multiple choice. Alternate timelines spread out from the main one, but sometimes loop back onto the main branch. A new multiverse (albeit one with a different explanation than the one disposed of in Crisis), and the handies explanation for continuity errors or changes since “A wizard did it”. Both Flash and Superboy had adventures where they met versions of themselves from alternate Hypertime “kingdoms”, but I don’t know if the concept got picked up by DC as a whole.

In addition, there have been a couple of stories featuring evil counterparts of the JLA from another universe (although I think they’re supposed to be from the same anti-universe as Qward, which survived the Crisis.)

The main purpose of the Crisis was to give the writers carte blanche to dispose of the 40+years of backstory on Superman and co. and start over.

Many of the lasting effects have been undone-There’s a Kandor, Kara Zor-El is back, Luthor is a renegade criminal mastermind, Supe’s powers aren’t psychic, Krypto is back, etc. One of the big changes to Superman that’s still around is that Ma and Pa Kent are still alive. On one hand, I like it–it’s a neat contrast to Batman and I like the characters. On the other hand…it removes one of the truly great tragic elements from Superman’s history: all this power and he couldn’t save his own parents. I’m torn on that one.

Outside of the Super-Books, however other changes are still in effect: Barry (Flash) Allen is still dead, Wonder Woman didn’t show up until late in the game (she wasn’t one of the first wave super-heroes), Hawkman’s continuity still makes no sense (although everyone’s pretty much agreed not to talk about it :stuck_out_tongue: ), etc.

The biggest (and to me) worst irreparable damage from the Crisis was that previously, Superman was the first super-hero on Earths 1 and 2 (and first bad-guy on Earth 3) and sorta on Earth Prime (Ultraa). Now that all the worlds have been mooshed together, there’s a pretty continuious string of heroes starting with The Sandman (now the very first) and Superman is just first of a new wave of heroes. To me, this loses something.

I always liked the multiple Earths concept. It wasn’t that hard to keep 'em straight (outside of Earths 1 and 2, frankly, the remainder had nothing in common) and I thought the whole idea of 'em was just neat. *

I like the original idea of Crisis: Moosh all the worlds together, but let everyone remember that there had been multiple worlds. I liked the second idea in Crisis (when it was going to end in issue 10): start everything from scratch–all books get a new number one issue. (That was nixed when someone pointed out that the two best-selling books: Titans and Legion, required some history. If Robin doesn’t show up until Batman: year two or three, how can the titans form? It would have also pared DC’s line down to about four books. It would have been financially impossible). Even the third idea (which never happened) was a good one: Every book starts six(?) years from Superman’s debut, but there’ll be a 6 issue mini dealing with what happened in those missing six years. Superman had “Man of Steel” but the other books never really happened.

The problem, to me, with Crisis, is that the editors didn’t all come to an agreement beforehand about what Crisis acutally meant (and the bigwigs kept changing things) so no two people agreed on what was going on. The Earth-One Jason Todd kept showing up in Titans for about a year after the Earth-Post Crisis Jason Todd (the street punk) debuted in Batman , for example. Hawkman (from Thanagar) showed up and played a crucial part in JLA and Superman even though Hawkman’s first post-Crisis appearance would happen sometime after Invasion. Denny O’Neill kept saying that Batman had never been a member of the JLA, but Keith Giffen and J.M. DeMatthis kept putting him in the book and so on. Byrne decided that there wasn’t only no Superboy, but there shouldn’t be a “Pocket Universe” Superboy, essentially killing Legion and forcing a reboot (Kevin Dooley from Green Lantern certainly helped kill the book too)

Overall, I’m not real fond of the changes made by the Crisis. It seems that too much time is spent trying to fix things that were broken (accidentally or intentionally) by Crisis. For several years, instead of telling stories and going forward, too many books were trying to repair cracks in continuity made by Crisis. That’s mostly done and things are moving forward again, but look at the lost time.

Strange, but the thing I miss the most is that for something like 10-12 years, every summer I looked forward to the annual JLA/JSA summer crossover. That’s one thing that the Crisis permanately killed and the one thing I miss the most.

Fenris

*Of the worlds that appeared with any frequency, there were Earths One and Two (which, I’ll grant were tricky for the newbie to tell apart). Earth S appeared a few dozen times, at the outside, but since it was the Fawcett characters, it wasn’t really a problem. Earth X only appeared like two or three times (and since the Nazis won, it was easy again to tell apart). Earth 3 appeared three(?) times, but again, none of the characters were the same (the heroes were villians and vice versa) so no confusion there and Earth Prime only appeared like 4 times as well (but that was our world, so again no confusion)**.

**Unless you’re Gerry Conway and have a temper tantrum about the idea that Julius Schwartz didn’t really have a cosmic treadmill in his office so we’re on “Earth-Real” and “Earth-Prime” just looks like “Earth-Real” :rolleyes: But then, Conway was the one who said he never understood the multiple earths concept anyway, so…

So, um, even though you’ve said we’re not supposed to talk about it, I have to ask which Hawkman we’ve got now.

As I understand it, the golden age Hawkman was an archeologist who was really a reincarnated Egyptian prince, Hawkgirl was his reincarnated lover, and they came back and found each other over and over throughout time. The power wings came from the “nth” metal discovered by the Egyptian prince. They used ancient weapons because the nth metal energized them with special abilities that wouldn’t work with, say, guns. Ok, that I can deal with.

The silver age Hawkman and Hawkgirl were elite Thanagarian police who came to earth chasing a criminal, and just decided to hang out for a few decades. The ancient weapons were because that’s what Thanagarian Hawks used (but really because that’s what the original used). Carter and Shiera were earth names they took as a cover.

So now I have some Hawkman issues. The current Hawkman talks as if he were both the golden age and the silver age Hawkman. Kendra, who I thought was the golden age Shiera’s neice or something like that, is now supposed to be Shiera reincarnated. But since Shiera was around in the silver age, which would be something like “ten years ago” in DC years, that would mean that Kendra was alive at the same time as Shiera, which would preclude any possible reincarnation.

Needless to say, I’m confused.

Also, I’ve been rereading my Flash (Wally West) comics. Jay Garrick is referred to as being trapped in another dimension fighting a demon (a result of the crisis), and Wally, not having Barry’s vibration powers, can’t get him out. Then, suddenly, Jay is back, celebrating Christmas. No explanation is offered, either through exposition or one of those text boxes that tells you [see Title #10 for the full story, ed.]. He’s just there. Where did he come from?

I’m not a fan of the crisis either. Wonder Woman and Flash seem to be the only books that took the chance to do something new and run with it, and Flash could have done it without the crisis. The problem isn’t just the lost opportunity, it’s that it wasn’t necessary. The multiple Earths concept was more or less functional as it was.

Bad as it was, though, it sure beats Marvel’s attempt in 1996 to reset things.

Join the club. It’s hopeless. IIRC, the current writer of JSA and Hawkman (the very talented Geoff Johns who’s doing wonderful things in Flash) basically siad “Fuck it.” and mooshed the history of all the Hawkmen into the brain of the the current guy who’s mostly the reincarnated Egyptian prince with the understanding that we will never look back and try to figure stuff out.

But since you insist…

Post-Crisis, here’s (as far as I can tell) what happened.

Some Thanagarian crashed in ancient Egypt with a ship full of N[sup]th[/sup] metal, which has “remember your past life” properties as well as anti-gravity properties.

Prince Kufhu made wings out of them. He died

He was reincarnated as Carter Hall and joined the JSA.

Later, he joined the JLA, the first JSAer to do so.

Later, some Thanagarian police types who were actually spies for the Invasion joined the JLA–if there was a JLA story with the Hawks in space, it was the spies. If it was a story with the Hawks and it wasn’t in space, it was the Egyptian guy.

Later, the spies took Superman back to Krypton.

Later, after the Invasion, the spies left and were replaced by other Thanagarians–who did something…I don’t remember what.

Later the other (non-spy) Thanagians left.

Then the Hawkworld miniseries came out. Katar Hol, descendant of the Thanagarian who crashed in ancient Egypt was a drug addict and a murderer. He was Hawkman for a while but, IIRC, never joined the JLA. It was (IIRC) Tim Truman’s idea that Hawkworld happened 10 years ago. It was (IIRC) DC’s idea that, no, it happened today, which made all those earlier stories with the Hawks in space turn out to be other Thanagarians who jes’ happened to look just like Katar Hol and Shiera. :rolleyes:

Later, in his own book (which was good for much of it, even though it made no sense in terms of the rest of the universe) he became a sort of Hawk-creature.

Somewhere along the line some Native American got mixed up in the whole picture and was a sort of birdman Hawkman.

Then Extant (IIRC) mooshed all the Hawks togther as a sort of bird-creature thingie.

THEN Grant Morrison tried to replace Hawkman with the angel-guy from the the first dozen or so issues of JLA. DC said, um “No” and Morrison got stuck with a hawk-looking angel guy who wasn’t hawkman. (Zauriel).

About this point, DC said “Fuck it” and Hawkman was off limits for a couple of years until the new guy got the OK to fix things as best he could.

That’s the best I can do and I’m missing stuff.

**
In…um…“The Last Days of the JSA” it turned out that The Spear of Destiny (the spear that was used to pierce Christ’s side on the cross) had been corrupted by Hitler and Hitler was going to use it to bring about Ragnarok. The JSA said “Piss on that!” and locked themselves into a fight against the Norse demons for (they thought) all eternity. In an issue of Sandman (around #25) it turned out that the “Ragnarok” was just a simulation created by Odin who was puzzled as to how these heros got inside any why they were messing up his analysis. I don’t remember how they got out. But it was before the J.S.A. series by Mike Parobeck.

They were released in the otherwise uneventful miniseries Armageddon: Inferno, specifically #3 and 4. That led into the wonderful, short-lived JSA series by Len Strazewski and the late Mike Parobeck.

The late much lamented Mike Parobeck.

Th’ guy was an unsung genius, up there with Rich Burchett, C.C. Beck, Ty Templeton, Sheldon Mayer and Phil Foglio for clean, cartoony (in the best possible sense of the word) art.

Major blow to comics, (IMO) when he passed away.

I remember when I first saw his work, on The Fly by Impact Comics. He had a great style that was really ahead of its time–what we think of as the “Animated” style popularized by Bruce Timm, and carried on by Darwyn Cooke, Brad Rader, and Cameron Stewart. I’m a major fan of Mike Allred, Mike Mignola, and Matt Wagner, and I can see how other fans of those guys would have liked Parobeck’s artwork as well, and vice-versa.

The Crisis was, IMO, a good idea at the time. Continuity issues aside, I recall the most relevant justification for the Crisis being … ‘Well, Barry Allen read comics with the JSA and Jay Garrick as a child, so does that mean everyone on Earth One knows the Earth Two Superman’s secret identity, which happens to be the same as the Earth One Superman’s?’ There’s also the issue that it was difficult with certain sideline characters like Green Arrow to tell if a given story was in Earth One or Earth Two. Less of a problem moving into the 80’s, though.

I still mourn the death of Barry Allen, though, and keep waiting for them to undo that. DC’s recent ‘undoing’ of other Crisis eliminations has given me hope.

The introduction of Hypertime is something I’m very very happy about… I’ve always enjoyed the idea of alternate universes.

I miss the JLA/JSA team-ups as well, though.

Meh, I’m rambling. Yes, the Crisis has had plenty of lasting effects, killing Barry Allen, pushing the introduction of Supergirl, Wonder Woman, and Captain Marvel back … integrating all the minor Earth X and Earth S characters into the mainstream DC Universe… and giving all the old veterans a common mega-event to make reference to when some new trouble rears its head.

I mean, just think… where would the DCU be if they hadn’t been able to include the Blue Beetle? :smiley:

Hey man, I resemble that remark! I’m the biggest Blue Beetle fan on the SDMB!

http://www.geocities.com/bigbadvoodoolou/comics.html
http://www.geocities.com/bigbadvoodoolou/bluebeetle.html

Excellent website. I’ll have to look through your trading list. And do not think I was mocking the Beetle for a moment, sir, I was grinning in fond remembrance of his time with the Justice League. Blue Beetle and Booster Gold desperately need their own comic book.

Well now, see, that’s my point, the evil Justice League and their whole universe were definitely, visibly swallowed up in a wave of matter/anti-matter interaction in the Crisis series. In fact, the whole point of the later part of the series was that Evil Universe’s hero, Lex Luthor, sent his son through the matter/anti-matter barrier, and, at the end, there were only five universes left, so what’s the evil Justice League’s Universe still doing there?

In the intro to the series, they boasted about how, unlike Marvel’s Secret Wars, reall permanent changes would take place. So much for that…

So, wait, Ultraman and the Crime Syndicate/Injustice League were Earth 3, right?

I’m not sure because I’m only passingly familiar with the pre-Crisis Earth-3; but I thought that universe was destroyed, and that the Crime Syndicate anti-heroes are a recreation of the concept. Even though DC wanted to get out of the “alternate universes” business, I guess the idea of evil counterparts is too appealing to give up.
This site is somewhat informative, but it appears to be a deliberate amalgam of the pre-Crisis and post-Crisis continuity (with other fictional evil universes thrown in for good measure!)

[geek hijack] I named my son Alexander, but we call him ‘Lex’. Not after the villainous Lex, but after the Lex of Earth3. Most of my friends and acquaintences get the comic book link and ask why I’d name him after Superman’s enemy, but only a few get the Earth3 link and respond with a resounding ‘cooool’.

Y’see, I figure it gives him big boots to fill, growing up the only hero on a world of villains! cheesy daddy grin [/geek hijack]

Cap 'Mazing yeah, Ultraman was the Superman analogy on Earth3, along with Superwoman(WonderWoman), Power Ring(Green Lantern), Owlman(Batman) and… who was the Flash analogy? There weren’t analogies for Martian Manhunter, Aquaman (his existed on Earth1 as Black Manta and Ocean Master, heh heh) or Plastic Man (again, existed on Earth1 as Elongated Man, and sometimes Jimmy Olsen!).

I believe the Grant Morrison/Frank Quitely Earth2 OGN was based on the old Earth3 concept (which is too damn cool to dispose of so easily) but used the Hypertime idea (whtout calling it that specifically) that even though Earth3 had been destroyed, there was a parallel to Earth3 (let’s call is ‘3a’) that split at the time of Earth3’s destruction. This is all my supposition though and was never implicitly stated in the story. The story was simply set in a ‘parallel universe’.

I seem to recall reading (around the point DC introduced Hypertime) that there was a lot of newer writers who’d grown up with the Multiverse and now they were playing in the DCU they were peeved they couldn’t play with the DCMultiverse. Some writers had been doing multiverse type things, but we were supposed to accept it was all the same DCU. Hence the reintroduction, without admitting the recanting… (was this said earlier in the thread? My apologies if it was, I read the thread yesterday and can’t recall). Anyways, I liked the Multiverse, and I liked Excalibur’s jaunts through Marvel’s various universes, and I like Tom Strong’s dimension hopping antics. I dunno why, I just like 'em!

My one quandry is the end of Crisis, which leaves [spoiler] three Supermen alive: Superman of Earth1 (Kal El), Superman of Earth2 (Kal L) and Superboy of Earth Prime (which I thought was odd, since I thought Earth Prime’s only hero was Ultraa. Can anyone explain? Fenris, what gives?).

At the end of Crisis Superman(2) and Superboy(Prime) and um… Alexander Luthor(3) and maybe Lois(2), I don’t recall how many people there were- were on a platform and slipped out of the DCU into one of the parallel universes. Have we ever heard from them again? Was the Superboy on Pocket Earth (where current Superman killed the Kryptonian villains and because of residual guilt exiled himself to space) the Superboy of Earth Prime or was he the Matrix constructed by Pocket Luthor? [/spoiler]

I think the only thing I lament is that the DCU isn’t as coherent as it once was (was it ever?) and there isn’t the same sort of Universal history there once was (just my perception). There seem to be so many short-run series now (not miniseries, just series with no longevity), and series that are supposed to have a lasting effect, but they never gain the duration or momentum to introduce lasting NEW history. Even recent Superman history isn’t nearly as intriguing as it once was.

Anyone posit a guess why things aren’t the way they were, or am I being a goofy comic geek pining for days of yore?.

And Lou, I’m also a huge Beetle fan! That whole era of the JL was so refreshingly FUN! If only they’d do an ep of the JLA Cartoon that reflected the Giffen/Dooley years, kind’ve like the Batman cartoon did the episode that reflected DKreturns.

Oreos!

I have the JLA: Earth 2 graphic novel that introduces the post-Crisis Crime Syndicate (actually, I’ve heard that there’s currently two versions of them running around: the one from this thing and one from Qward, but I’m not sure) and supposedly they’re from the “anti-matter” universe. Interestingly, the way things work out is that their Earth is Earth 1 and the regular DCU is Earth 2 since they were named by the Alexander Luthor of the anti-matter universe. There’s this deal where if any person or thing from one universe spends too much time in the other universe, their counterpart is transported to the universe that they aren’t both in. So when the JLA spent too much time on Earth 1, the Crime Syndicate got zapped to the regular DCU Earth and started wreaking havoc (I highly reccomend it, btw, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman get to kick some serious ass).

They were shown being destroyed at the beginning of JLA/Avengers, but I doubt that’ll carry over into any actual continuity.

And I’d like to point out that this still isn’t as weird as the stuff going on in the weirdest soap opera plots thread.

The one result that really bugged me is that they brought both Plastic Man and the whole Captain Marvel/Shazam family into the modern-day, mainstream DC Universe. IMHO, neither really fits in there. They should have been left in their own little worlds–or at least in the 1940s.

In the pre-crisis universe Earth 3 was the home of the Crime Syndicate and Qward was the name of the both the anti-matter universe and the planet that existed in that universe that was a parallell to Oa. (This is where Sinestro got his yellow ring)

In the post-crisis universe the crime syndicate now exists on the earth in the same universe as Qward.

I’ve never owned very many DC comics (but I do love my old DC digests, and still have one series of Who’s Who), so I’m not very knowledgeable about the general DC mythos, past or present. That said, this thread has been very interesting, yet very, very painful on the brain. (And my brain already tends to hurt when I think.)

Are there any good websites out there which explain the whole multiple universe thing? It will be daunting, but I’d like to try get a basic understanding of the whole mess.

Anyhoo…