DC's Identity Crisis Ongoing Thread (Open Spoilers)

Cafe Society
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Bumping this thread now that issue #4 is out (unboxed spoilers, 'natch)

Jean’s not dead! Lois Lane is a target!

Batman doesn’t appear to be as on top of the situation as some people have theorized. In fact, his first real appearance in the series didn’t amount to very much. And speaking of brief appearances, I wonder if the fact that we saw almost nothing of Wonder Woman is of any significance?

The Ollie/Hal scene was interesting. It definitey sets up Hal’s return for anyone who didn’t know it was coming.

Judging by the cover to next ish, I’m guessing we’ll see Jack Drake buy it next.

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Wow, you beat me to it.

Yeah, I’m glad Jean Loring wasn’t offed - I’m thinking Boomerang’s newfound son hasn’t long to live - or possibly there’ll be a switch and Digger will bite it, and his son will be the new Boomerang.

Loved the sly commentary on Hal’s return - I like that they actually dealt with the Spectre as a source of info too.

The Suicide Squad angle was interesting as well…

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We seem to be in the eye of the storm, story-wise. Jean’s ok, nobody died this issue, no major plot developments…

I did think it was cool that Ollie’s narration acknowledged that Batman scares Superman. Or, hell, that anything scares Superman. Oh, and I really, really loved the Superman/Boy Scout bit. It’s been kind of an undercurrent with the DC comics, it was fun to see it brought out front and used.

What I want to know is, how come Lois got a note, instead of the killer just offing (or trying to off) her the way he/she did with Sue and Jean. Is it because Big Blue’s identity is still secret, while Ralph’s and Ray’s were public? Will Jack Drake get a note when the killer puts him on the list?

And…

who benefits?

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A bunch o’ thoughts.

  1. Next victim? Captain Boomerang Jr. He’s got the word “DOOMED” painted on his forehead in big red letters, IMO. After that, maybe Jack Drake. The Lois note (I’d guess) is there to throw the heroes into a tizzy.

  2. Batman’s “Who benefits?” comment is just dumb for Batman to say. In a real-world context maybe that works, but given Batman’s personal collection of random-acting psychos, it’s not something I buy from him. No-one benefits when Joker decides to kill everyone in Gotham who’s middle name ends in a vowel (well, the Joker benefits, sort of, because he’s satisfying whatever random whim prompted him, but by that argument, it could be people in the Suicide Squad who benefit from snuffing the loved ones of heroes who pissed them off). Hell, Batman’s origin comes from a random act of violence. There was no big uber-motive when Chill saw an opportunity to rob some rich guys and indulged in a spur-of-the-moment robbery. Bats knows about random, chaotic violence better than any other hero.

  3. Why was the Black Spider a white guy–wasn’t he supposed to be black? Or am I misrembering (I assume it’s Black Spider–the guy standing behind Mirror Master)

  4. It’s odd that we haven’t been given enough info to at least be able to make educated guesses as to who the killer is. We’ve had 1.5 victims (Jean is the 1/2)…and all we know is that the killer wore work-boots, uses a variety of methods, goes after wives of heroes (the fact that Previews let slip that he’s going after bad-guy’s loved ones doesn’t count–hasn’t happened in story yet) and can somehow slip past security systems. Anyone else have any other clues?

  5. I would consider it a HUGE cheat for it to be someone new (the “just some shlub that the writer made up” syndrome).

Also, why does everyone in the story think it’s only one guy? What if someone had a major hate-on for Sue and then someone else decided to get revenge on the Atom with a copycat crime. What if it’s a group of disgruntled lame bad-guys.

  1. A wild-ass guess? What if it’s Luthor? He’s smart enough to get around the security systems, he’s smart enough to know to use a wide variety of methods that would send the JLA on wild-goose chases (Dr. Light, Slipknot) and he hates the JLA.

  2. This is a whole new set of rules for the Specter. He never had those rules before. And the new rules don’t make a lot of sense–God wants the Wrath of God to stand around with his thumb up his butt while a bunch of innocent people die? The established rules have been that while the Spectre may or may not be able to save the life of the victim, he’s always able to punish the guilty. Since Sue’s dead (probably–it could be a dead Sue-clone or something) the Spec. should be allowed to turn the perp into a frog and toss him in a blender or something.

  3. Last issue? That fight with Deathstroke? Nope. No way. There’s a thing where a writer thinks a character’s cool and amps his powers waaaay beyond what they should be AND makes all his opponents stupid (the first fight with Doomsday comes right to mind–why didn’t someone put him in a force-field/power ring bubble or lift the ground under him and fling Doomsday into space?). This is a case in point, IMO.

  4. I loved the idea that the religion that Slipknot found was Kobra. That’s just creepy in a great way.

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Heavy snipping.

#2 - I think Batman recognizes that most garden-variety madmen would have difficulty with the security systems installed at the crime scenes. It may be that he also has figured out something we haven’t been told yet - notice that the photographs of the people he’s concentrating on aren’t all former Suicide Squadders, whereas the Satellite League’s bunch was.

#6 - I’d be surprised if Luthor didn’t have something to do with it. As you say, he’s smart enough to possibly get around the security systems. More importantly, he was President and therefore has a connection to the Suicide Squad - I imagine they’ve kept detailed records on the powers and methods of their operatives. Also, he knows Superman’s secret ID.

#7 - Ehhh… the Spectre has been unable to interfere in certain things before. It may be that he was ordered to sit this particular investigation out.

#8 - There are only two things that bugged me in the Deathstroke fight - him taking out Wally so easily, and him taking out Kyle so easily. I completely buy the rest of it. As for Doomsday - who in the League could do it? He’d already forged a resistance to the energy of the Green Lantern rings in a previous incarnation. I don’t think anyone else around at the time could muster a strong enough force field.

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Not much to add, except that they STILL haven’t brought up the fact that Sue was pregnant when she was killed. Maybe it just wasn’t significant, but that’s hard to believe. Oh, and I think if I wanted to go gunning for someone other than Lois, making everyone concentrate on protecting Lois is probably the best way to clear a path to your real target. I still say Jack Drake is in a lot of trouble.

Or Jack snapped when Tim went back to being Robin and decided to start offing superfolks. :eek: :wink:

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My 2 cents is that reflections have appears in the 4th straight book now. In this issue, it’s of Lois as she’s exiting the elevator of the Daily Planet. Someone tell me again why Mirror Master can’t be the guy. (And also tell me who MM is and what he does!)

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Maybe the coloring is wonky on one of our copies or something - Black Spider is definitely black in my copy.

Supposedly Meltzer’s killers are always characters who have appeared within the stories themselves (that’s what I’ve read on the DC boards, anyway), so I’m really hoping we avoid something like that here. Not that any recent DC stories HUSH come to mind.

Given the last time we saw him in Superman/Batman and the fact that it was apperantly his armor in the crate in IC #1, I’d be very surprised if Luthor wasn’t involved in some way.

I’ve also heard speculation that Jeal Loring may be involved - she’s been featured in every issue so far, they made a note of the fact that she owns several of Ray’s patents (which could potentially get someone by JLA security), and she didn’t die.

Also, I think something interesting is the fact that Jean was able to phone Ray at all - supposedly she was ambushed the minute she walked in the door and she didn’t even have a chance to see anything other than the killer’s shoes. How did she get to the phone to dial Ray?

I’ve also head someone speculate on the timeline - namely, that the phone in the bottm right panel of IC #4 says that the phone has been on for 33 seconds, while 30 seconds ago she was already hanging from the door.

Clearly Jean isn’t the only killer, but I think it’s very probable that she’s involved somehow.

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I agree with most of Fenris’ post about this issue.

I think that the book has tripped and has lost its pace. It really needs to reachieve the pacing of the previous issues to maintain the interest that will keep the readers through the end.

BTW, am I the only one having a hard time believing that the Golden Glider, no matter how addled, would play spread the Vegemite with Boomerang(not the spin off of the Cartoon Network).

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Why is everyone assuming IC is happening after recent events in Robin and Batman (and Teen Titans)?

In IC#1, Tim says ‘Last week, Dad found out I spend my nights running around as Robin.’ Not ‘Last week, Dad found out I’ve started going out as Robin again,’ ‘Dad found out I spend my nights running around as Robin.’ And he also talks about how he thought it would make things easier - which doesn’t make sense in a ‘I disobeyed him and started doing this again’ context, but does in a ‘I’ve been hiding this for years, and now it’s out in the open’ context.

The Girl Wonder stuff takes place over more than a month - probably more like 2 or even 3 - all I have is Robin 126 and 127 which cover 49-50 days (Robin’s War Journal goes from Day 1 to Day 48, there’s at least one, probably 2 days before Steph takes the costume) - after Tim quits, so there’s no way to integrate Tim-in-costume with happening after Steph-as-Robin and still be a week after Jack finds out.

So, we can rule out Jack Drake’s death - but a close call would certainly be enough to finally convince Tim to quit - however temporarily.

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I’ve been thinking about the phone a bit. A lot of houses and apartments I’ve been in have a phone jack fairly close to the front door, so I think it’s entirely possible that Jean could have made a lunge for it and hit speed-dial. Hell, if you were on really good terms with your superhero ex, wouldn’t his number be at the top of your speed-dial list?

I’m also bothered by the fact that nothing has been made of the fact that Sue was pregnant.

Also, since Kid Boomerang seems to be on the list now, I’m starting to suspect the Calculator.

Think about it, he’s sort of become the (extremely high-priced) Oracle of the supervillian set, he has access to a lot of information, he told Captain Boomerang where to find his son, and who the hell else knows about that?

Actually, I’m also suspecting that there is not a single killer, but I do think this is an organized plot with a single mastermind, probably paying off some guys who are familiar enough with the methods of some AASPD sufferers that they could commit (or attempt) a murder and plausibly make the JL suspect that party.

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Rereading issue four and knowing this is leading back to Hal returning to his role as Green Lantern, I wondered…

See, when they’re looking at pictures of former Suicide Squad members, right towards the middle is a picture of Count Vertigo.

The previous incarnation of the Spectre judged Vertigo’s people evil and killed all but him and one other.

While Count Vertigo doesn’t know that a different person is the Spectre now, he does know that the Spectre is attached to the Justice Society and has worked with the Justice League.

Vertigo hasn’t been known for his sanity. Losing his home land would probably make sanity a lost cause.

What if he’s either engineering these kills or somehow doing them himself to smoke out the Spectre? Perhaps this would culminate with Carol Ferris, forcing Hal to go against what he is told he can do, which gets him stripped of his role as the Spectre?

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A couple of points–1) looking at the issue again, Black Spider is white in my copy on the two page spread on top, but black in the bottom middle panel

  1. Did you notice that Hal specifically referred to the killer as “Them”?

  2. Shy Guy:eek: The Jean Loring stuff is a great thought (WAY out of character, but it fits). You’d have to get around the “If you’re shrunk too long and/or return no normal size you explode” bug in Ray’s shrinking equiptment, but telephoning your way in past security is no problem apparently…

CandidGamera-The Wally thing, the Kyle thing AND the Atom thing were the problems for me. Sorry, but Deathstroke just ain’t that good, despite the writer thinking he’s kewl.

And while the Joker isn’t a garden variety madman, he’s still a random, motiveless nutcase (when written at his best) and the Joker could easily get around any silly security system.

Tengu–based on next issue’s cover, I think Jack’s toast. (Also, I understand that several higher-ups in the DC office don’t like the fact that Tim is the only current Bat-character who’s not been…scarred, for lack of a better word. Killing Jack would fix that)

Mockingbird–Given the “Adam Strange Has a Secret Wife In Utah” blurb in the upper left-hand corner of that tabloid, I suspect we’re looking at DC’s answer to the Weekly World News.

Also, as nifty as your scenario is, it depends on Vertigo both knowing and NOT knowing that Hal is the Spectre. If he does know, then he’s not out for revenge against Hal-Spectre, he wants Corrigan-Spectre. If he doesn’t know, then there’s no reason to go after Carol since her super-hero boyfriend is dead.

On the other hand…evil grin…if he did go after Carol, heh, he’d be in for quite a surprise as Star Sapphire kicks his green bi-polar ass to Alpha Centauri.

Mango-I hope it’s not the Calculator-that’s such a damned good concept that it deserves to stick around.

Munch–Mirror Master is actually the second Mirror Master. The first died in the Crisis. The first guy had the ability to all sorts of illusion/reality warping type stuff with mirrors (change Flash so that he physically looks like the distorted reflection in a funhouse mirror, solid light illusions, reversing flash so that his left and right are mixed up so he tripped over his own feet, etc).

One other flaw: I think Metzger made a major mistake when he introduced Zatanna to the storyline. All she needs to do is say “Eus s’yenbid rellik raeppa ni tnorf fo su won!” and poof end of mystery. Hell, even if she can’t do that, she can (and has) say “Tel eht tsohg/tirips of euS yenbiD raeppa!” and have Sue’s ghost tell us what happened. I understand that it would ruin the mystery, but between this and Hal’s lack of participation, we’re tiptoeing near the dreaded borders of an “idiot plot”*–if he hadn’t introduced Zatanna, I wouldn’t fault him for not using her, but by introducing her, he should use her intelligently and as she’s been written.

THis part isn’t a criticism, as much as a sidebar on why this sort of story is difficult in the DC Universe:
[ul]
[li]Batman knows and can contact Deadman who’s mentioned to a number of people about the realm of the recently dead–Why hasn’t Bats asked Deadman to chat with Sue? [/li][li]Also, what about Dr. Fate? [/li][li]Jakeem’s Thunderbolt, and about a half dozen others? [/li][li]And they’ve cheated twice (at least) on Alan Scott’s ring’s ability to give life (it was only supposed to work once and it’s worked at least twice, maybe three times), why can’t they bring Sue back? [/li][li]Bats, Supes, Green Arrow, etc knows Rip Hunter, the future robot version of Hourman, and bunches of other time travellers. Why not go back and see what happened? He wouldn’t be able to change things, but he could see who did it.[/li][li]IIRC, isn’t Mr. Miracle still the king of New Genesis? (Or is it Tachyon?) Either way, why not tell Metron to go back and see whodunnit?[/li][/ul]
And that’s off the top of my head–given a half hour, I could think up an easy 30 more. Yeah, these would all ruin the story and I understand why he’s not using them, but it’d be a better story if these things were addressed.

Fenris

*A plot that only works 'cause everyone involved is an idiot.

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Actually, at this point, a very strange turn in the “Weekly Comic Book Discussion” thread has led me to believe that Krokodil is the killer.

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The problem is that, as I said, all the indicators of the relative timeline put IC BEFORE Robin 126.

IC 1 takes place over 3 days. 2 and 3 finish that third day - the first day being a week after Jack finds out Tim is Robin, based upon Tim’s narration. Since Jack’s still around more than a month after Tim actually quits, if IC keeps up the same pacing - it seems much more likely that it will than it won’t - then it won’t catch up with Robin, meaning that Jack can’t be killed off in IC. Scared, definitely. Injured, possibly. But not killed.

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But in IC #4, Jack knows Tim is Robin and seems to have made his peace with it, as Tim is calling in sick for the night. Doesn’t that mean it has to be happening awhile after the current *Robin * story?

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Not really. In fact, that’s one of the indicators of it being before Steph - after Tim has promised not to go out as Robin again, it would likely take a lot longer for Jack to make peace with him going back on that promise and starting to risk his life again than a week.

Before ‘retirement’ - he’s risking his life.

After ‘retirement’ - he’s risking his life, and he promised he wouldn’t.

Both can, eventually, give way to him making peace with the idea, but the latter would take longer - and a close call for either Jack or Tim could easily change Jack’s attitude, even if he had made peace with it in the abstract.

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Either IC takes place after War Games, or we are looking at a continuity error being carried out in two comic book storylines that are being published concurrently.

In Robin 124 and 125 (I don’t have 126) it is clear that Jack Drake forces Tim to retire as Robin the same day he finds out. So, either the writers at DC aren’t talking to each other about what’s going on in the various characters storylines, or Jack learned that Tim put the cape and tights back on again during the events of War Games and finally resigned himself to the fact that his son is Robin. And it’s pretty apparent that he’s not at peace with the situation. He frets over his Tim pretty majorly.

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John came back because the martians had decided that they wanted backed in this solar system and the only planet inhabitable was Earth. John stole a spaceship and came to warn us of the impending invasion.

Aquaman call in the League but the big hitters (Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman) didn’t show. (They were in another dimension), so he disbanded the League and created the Detroit version.

John, since he had betrayed his people, was not welcome back so he stayed on Earth.

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No, no, lots of threads today have the posts out of sequence.