An old saying, but it’d be hard to demonstrate a word of truth in it. Over the centuries men seem to given themselves less and less right to dispose of an unwanted child - in Roman times ISTR that the newborn wasn’t legally “alive” until its father acknowledged it as such. Since we routinely expect men to adhere to the code of “Women and children first”, I rather suspect we’d expect men to carry a pregnancy to term even at the cost of their own lives - last in the lifeboats and all that.
Actually, No. That’s not how we work. If the mother abandoned the child and the father (or whomever) accepted responsibility for the child, the court would set support for the mother to pay IF the new custodial parent either receives public assistance for the child or if s/he applies for services.
Women pay child support all the time. To the father. To a grandparent. To a foster care agency.
Difference being a woman goes to a sperm bank specifically to become pregnant. MOST women, in the case of an accidental pregnancy, don’t plan it.
What about the couples that plan on having a child, then a few years down the road it doesn’t work out? There seems to be such a strong focus on the “Oopses” that we’re forgetting the broad majority of child support cases - the “But we were in LURVE” cases. My ex and I were together for almost a year after our child was born. Because we split up he should be able to “sign off” on his parental role despite having been a father for the time he was in the household?
What about divorces? Why should the children of a divorce be considered “more” (are people objecting to paying support afer a divorce?) than a child born without the moniker ‘bastard’ tied to his/her name?
But the biological father should be exempt. Yanno, MOST women do not plan on raising a child alone. Shocking, I know. MOST women do not sneak up on guys, drug them, drag them home and rape them with an EPT stick in hand in hopes to live a glorious life struggling to raise a child (or children) on their own.
Sad to say, but I figured I would probably be raising our child on my own. My ex was, and still is not, a very mature person. But we were In Lurve. I knew receiving child support would be difficult, and that has been true. So I raise our daughter planning on NOT having his financial support. Many times I did have to ask my parents for help, and they kindly did so. Some will not. I’m now in a place where I can exist without his financial support. When he does pay that just means she can have jeans bought at Kohl’s, not the used store.
The fact is, whether you’re a two parent family or a one parent family you want the best for your child. I’m not saying all parents should want to send little Johnny to Yale, maybe your greatest aspiration is for him to stay out of juvie hall for two consecutive months. Having BOTH parents involved both emotionally and financially DOES help.
For the past few decades the system has been unfair.
BUT IT HAS BEEN CHANGING
I hear rants like this all the time. The “You People” types of nutters. As I posted on page 1, blame your politicians. They are the ones who tell the courts and, in turn, us child support workers what guidelines we must work within. One size does NOT fit all. We know.
Oh, and for what it’s worth, it IS parents, not just dads.
Losers come in both sexes.
There are situations where a woman can turn a man who wants to be a father to his kid into a sperm donor through hostility, manipulation, and all sorts of legal bullshit. A friend of mine is going through this right now-- the mother of his child found another man and wants her new man to be in the paternal role, so she has skipped out on scheduled visitation, threatened her child’s father with abuse allegations if he presses his visitation rights, and consistently made efforts to cut him out of the kid’s life. He has declared bankruptcy once already after losing his job, but not only were his child support payments not lowered, but she got an applied-for COLA increase.
He hasn’t missed any payments, BTW, but she still won’t let him see his kid, and he hasn’t for several years, because he simply cannot afford a lawyer, nor to drive several hours each way, back and forth, to go to court, to make her comply. She has her parents’ help, her new husband’s help, and the backing of a system that favors mothers over fathers. He has no help, financial, emotional, or legal. He is at the point where he despises his child’s mother so much that he thinks it’s better to just make his payments and let her have it her way, because he doesn’t want to put his kid in the middle of two people who hate each other and want to hurt each other.
I’m also sure that she has told her kid that his father has abandoned him and doesn’t care, and is helping to transfer his affections any way she can to her new husband. It is possible for mothers to lie and mislead their kids about the nature of the man who conceived them, and the kids have little choice but to believe their mother, of course. But she gladly takes her kid’s father’s money. Thus, this child has two fathers-- the one who supports him financially, and the one who his mother chose to raise him. Quite a coup for her, don’t you think? She has her cake and is eating it too.
This is another side to the story that you don’t hear when people talk about deadbeat dads, and how could he not see his kid? It’s not all the guy’s fault, every time.
Unfortunately, Rubystreak, that happens in some cases.
In all states there are organizations that will help guys in situations like he is - whether it is low cost attorney assistance or sessions with others who are in the same boat and how they got through it.
A quick link: Fed Page
Another: Menstuff
That’s not a ton of help - I know. If he resided in Minnesota I could rattle off a ton of resources for him. If he wants to fight, PM me where he resides and I’ll see what resources I can find. Can’t guarantee how perfect they will be, but I can give it a shot.
It is NOT right for the custodial parent to pull crap like that. That’s, IMO, holding the child emotional hostage.
Chauvin wasn’t actually Napoleon. You don’t have to be a woman to be a female chauvinist.
I’d propose modifying the current structure of child support so that it no longer encourages reproduction for profit or to enslave another human being.
Indeed. And if a woman comes to the court to get money from a man who has, from the moment he was informed of the present or future child, said he wanted nothing to do with it… she is, in effect, saying she knows she is incapable of raising a child on her own but had it anyway. There is no benefit to subsidizing irresponsibility. In such cases, remove the child to foster care and require child support from both parents to subsidize its care until adopted (biological parent(s) will receive preference if they qualify) or it’s no longer dependent.
In cases where there is an existing relationship between parent and child, and there is a loss of support, then the courts can require child support from one parent to transfer to the other. No retroactive child support. No child support levied in absentia accumulating for years until the parent is located.
Condoms and tubal ligation are available, too.
Only to the extent that it is symbolic of the struggle against the Romans.
Not directed at me, but since it isn’t relevant to the argument of the other person you asked, either, it’s obvious why you’re asking. I am not behind on child support payments.
I doubt he’d take any action to rock the boat right now-- he’s finally paid off his arrears, and he’s afraid if he interferes with this woman by pressing his visitation, she’ll come after him for more money, would allege abuse where there was none, and would turn the whole thing into a nightmare for everyone. He’s terrified of her and what she can do to him, financially, at this point. He doesn’t want to be in a position where she can further hurt him emotionally, which he would be if he tried to share custody with her.
In effect, he is her indentured servant, working to pay her for support of a child who probably thinks he’s an abandoning asshole who left him and doesn’t love him, and to whom he must be a stranger because she demands it be so. She has all the power in this situation, and far more money, which enables her to continue to have the upper hand. It’s really sad.
You know, it sounds like you’re saying, “somebody’s gotta pay for it. I know, let’s make men!”
I figure if as a society we hold a woman’s right to have a child no matter what circumstances sacrosanct, then as a society we should be willing to pay her to do it. We should not single out men and deny them the same reproductive rights women have.
I don’t think men’s moral compass is going to change all that much. You seem to feel men are despicable pigs and we need to regulate them. I’m not talking about a man having ten kids. I’m talking about ten pregnancies and opting for “no” each time. Women can do it, why can’t men?
As a culture, we’ve decided women should be able to have kids whenever they want, regardless of their ability to finance it. It’s like universal health care. Can’t pay? No problem. You shouldn’t have to pay because we’ve decided you don’t have to pay.
Well then sit down and pay attention. It’s society’s responsibility because it’s society who grants women the right to have kids however many times they want. As a society, we feel it’s important for women to keep pumping out kids. Well then, society needs to pay for these kids. If a man chooses to be a father, they of course he should pay. But he gets the same right to choose a woman does!
This is getting so tiresome. A man can’t choose what a woman decides to do with her body, but she’s doing it with the help of part of the man’s body. He should be able to opt out of his contribution just as she can opt out of her contribution.
Yeah, duh. Have I said otherwise? Most places, women have seven days to give it up, no questions asked. Who has to bear the responsibility? Society! Hello, we set this policy!
Sorry, but for every young horny guy there’s a young horny gal and I’ll never really understand why you want to hold one more responsible than the other, in our current age. That’s sexism.
See post #23.She separated from dad, slept with another man, had me, stuck her husband’s name on the birth certificate, he had a blood test performed proving I wasn’t his, she spent my entire upbringing telling me he was a damn filthy no good liar who didn’t want to live up to his manly man responsibilities. I hated men for quite awhile after that. Kinda like you. I figured they were all bad and wrong and didn’t want their kids just by default.
He did pay child support for his other two kids for awhile, after he managed to even find them, but I think a condition of my mom divorcing him and denying him any parental rights also pretty much shot CS out of the water.
Actually he did set up a trust fund for my brother’s education. He’s a well regarded geneticist now (bioinformaticist?). I think he also may have helped my sister a bit, but I can’t remember now. She’s mostly a baby-plopper-outer.
Never paid a cent to me. Why should he? I’m apparently not his. Well, who knows. I could still be and I’ll be back talking about what a jerk he is, but my brother and I haven’t gotten around to the genetic test proving once and for all whether we have the same father.
I’m getting tired. I think any man who’s had opportunity to acknowledge he’s a father and shirks his responsibilities needs to get fucked hard in the ass until he does.
If he’s opted out of the pregnancy then it’s not his problem. If he’s opted in, he’s a fucker if he doesn’t.
If the father abandoned the child after he knew and accepted the pregnancy, then he’s a fucker. Pregnant by accident??? Huh??? Whaaaaaaataminit. Did you just say pregnant by accident? Aren’t you the guy claiming guys should be held responsible for whatever they do, accident or not?
Well I think we should pay if we’re going to let bio-mom play.
You sure about that? Under Safe Haven laws?
What doesn’t work out? The couple or the child? Are you talking about a woman having her husband’s sperm frozen then impregnating herself ten years after they’ve divorced?
Whew, I’m too tired for that. Start another thread.
My first husband slacked off on child support as soon as he discovered I was remarrying. After a year of non payment he forfeited his parental rights by default and my husband adopted her, but we never cut contact with the first husband and his assorted family. Years of empty promises and relationships with less than desirable women ensued. In the meantime, AdoptaDaughter grew into a lovely teenager who finally met one of these women and told her the bald truth about her situation, which blew up all the lies in first husband’s face.
Sad fact of the matter is that although he now, some 20+ years later, is finally getting his life together and has made admirable attempts to become part of AdoptaDaughter’s life, he still skirts/twists the truth and lives in fear of his lady friend(s) finding out what a dead beat dad he was and quickly changes the subject whenever his lady friends question why my daughter calls him by his first name rather than “dad”.
Frankly, any man who feels like his biological child shouldn’t receive child support out of retaliation toward the child’s mother is NOT a real man in my book.
Is a woman who uses her child’s father like an ATM but denies him contact with his kid not a real woman?
Um, yeah, I AM pretty sure about it. I petition the courts daily to redirect child support to whomever has the child. And yes, mothers do pay fathers. They pay grandparents. They pay foster care agencies. Ideally, orders would follow the child no matter whom s/he is with. Our courts are slowly moving that direction. I have had orders come across my desk where the poor kid is like a high bounce ball, staying with numerous relatives. The court decided to state that child support is X amount and if Mom doesn’t have the child she is to pay X amount. When you see one kid on 10 - 12 cases… where’s the stability. But that’s not what this response is about.
Safe Haven is a completely different thing. Once a mother drops a child off at a Safe Haven all parental responsibilities are done. For the mother AND the father. If the mother is unknown, how could the courts go after a putitive father?
And, for what it’s worth, people terminate parental rights. Mothers and Fathers. In Minnesota it’s not easy to do so, but it is done. Usually they will only allow for a willing termination of rights if someone else is willing to step in and be the legal parent (IOW if someone else is willing to adopt the child). The courts will also request removal of parental rights in cases where the courts deem the person (mother or father) to be an unfit parent.
The relationship.
Many people in this thread seem to be hung up on “SURPRISE! YOU’RE A FATHER!” types of cases where the father unknowingly created a child. That is such a small percentage of cases. The vast majority of cases, as I stated, stem from a couple who, for some reason, split up. The child is not a surprise. In most cases the father played a role in the childs’ life until something the break up.
Let me toss in these couple of pennies: I do not type any of this as a representative of my office. Any info I write about my employment is info that can be obtained anywhere by anyone. It is a subject that I am fervent about as I do know the system doesn’t always work. I do know certain groups of people get totally screwed by the courts (COURTS, not child support agency) and do what I can to diminish the negative opinions about the system. It’s obviously an uphill battle.
Well then let’s not confuse our gentle readers.
I was talking about women abandoning their child under Safe Haven laws which means she can drop it off, abdicate all her parental responsibilities up to seven or so days after giving birth.
We do not give this right to men. Well, technically, I think we do because we know men don’t actually give birth and usually aren’t in a position to drop a kid off at the fire station within seven days of its being born. Could happen, I guess.
Oh, and I meant to add: You really need to make us clear on this, as a CS operative.
Mom can dump the kid, no questions asked under Safe Haven laws. If by some chance you found the father and he wanted the child, THE WOMAN WOULD NEVER BE PURSUED, THREATENED AND/OR SENT TO PRISON for not paying child support.
Yes or no?
read the existing posts. The answer to your question was posted before you asked it.
In my opinion, yes. I have nothing but contempt for women who jerk around the father of their children. I also have very little respect for women who hook up with a man knowing he has children and doesn’t support them, and proceed to get knocked up anyway. Then comes the bitching and moaning about “where’s my child support?” Did you honestly think you were different?
Our current child support system is far from perfect; but I can’t think of a better way to do things. Just letting fathers off the hook doesn’t seem like a good idea to me, but the way things are sometimes aren’t fair to them.
Back in college I was engaged to a man who had a child from his first marriage. His ex-wife was at the door every Friday with her hand out, but when the baby came to stay with us for his weekends with her she would arrive with maybe two diapers and a bag full of out-grown clothes. So every two weeks, in addition to paying child support, we would have to go buy new clothes. (We quickly learned not to send them home with her because we never saw them again if we did. We would send her home in the clothes she arrived in, with the exact same number of diapers in the bag.) Mom, however, was always dressed in Polo. Frustrating? You bet. Did he stop paying child support? No way. And there was some doubt that the baby was even his.
I wish I could think of a solution that is fair to everyone, but I can’t.
It isn’t easy but if he wants to have a decent honest relationship with women he should just be honest and tell them he made serious mistakes and regrets them and is trying to be a better person. Women could respect that more than a half truth {I think}
I mentioned that my step son’s Dad ignored him got 12 years and when he finally had to pay up he denied paternity and then hired a lawyer to browbeat my ex into accepting less. The lawyer was a gem of a guy who claimed my ex had been spreading lies about his client and had seriously hurt his business. It was bullshit.
I’m not sure but I believe he got divorced from his then wife shortly after and I always suspected that it may have been because the CS order told her something about his charecter that she couldn’t tolerate.
Someone in this thread said it was awful that the horrible CS system had ruined his life. I see it as him finally receiving the consequences of his own bad choices.
Do you have any insight or experience concerning the OP other than this? I really can’t quite figure out why my daughter doesn’t seek child support from her ex and adds to that by having a boyfriend now who is a deadbeat Dad and doesn’t work to support his kids. It seems like a lot of fear, and a real lack of self esteem and self respect.
That scares the crap out of me. I love my daughter and I’ve seen her as a talented, very, smart loving and sensitive, compassionate human being. Some of that is Dad’s blinders I guess. I never quite understood why she let her ex continue to treat her so very badly when her family was ready and willing to step in and help out. Why did she feel compelled to continue to be abused emotionally. As we were driving away from him after a heated confrontation between he and I, she began to cry. When I asked her what was wrong she said she felt we had been really mean to him. Really mean…to him!! I was dumbfounded.
Now her current boyfriend is a deadbeat Dad. They haven’t been together that long but long enough that she should be able to see through his lame excuses. I love her but I’m having a hard time maintaining respect for her choices as an adult. We’ll have to talk when I go to visit soon and we’ll see what happens.
If I heard she was pregnant from this new deadbeat I’d say…Go get an abortion ASAP.
No system will be perfect and sadly there will always be people ready and willing to lie and manipulate the system.
And he never insisted on a blood test? Is that being noble to a fault?
Minnesota Safe Haven Statute
More on Safe Haven
If you Google “Safe Haven” you will find a plethora of sites that will explain the laws in all states where Safe Haven is on the books.
The mother MAY face charges if the infant is abused. That’s it. The child is considered abandoned and the county becomes the official guardian. As the government doesn’t know who the mother (let alone the father) is, child support doesn’t come into play.
I am not familiar with any cases where the biological father has attempted to override an abandonment, but it may have happened. I would guess that IF the father managed to obtain the child back, the mother would be pursued for support, despite the abandonment, IF the father applied for public assistance of applied for support services. Our job is to enforce orders set by the courts that order a parent to pay child support to another entity for the care of a child. It doesn’t matter if it’s a turkey baster baby or a baby borne of a 10 year marriage. IT DOESN’T MATTER.
I have not dealt with any Safe Haven children, as far as I know. I have dealt with children who have been abandoned to other family members, children who have been put into foster care, children who (as I said in my previous post) bounce around from person to person and children who have not seen their mothers since release from hospital for whatever reason.
I understand what you’re getting at, though. It’s been my experience though that the majority of men who have a child want some kind of attachment to the child. Unfortunately, as some have posted here, the mother may do what she can to stop there for being any relationship (which is plain wrong in my opinion. I may not like my ex too much, but he IS my daughters dad and therefore he has a place in her life. I do not denegrate him and I do what I can to try and get them to spend time together. However, HE never had anyone to call Dad so he doesn’t have a clue how it works)
I am of the opinion that even if a child is borne from too many tequila shots at the local dive, that child deserves to have the protection of both a mother and a father. If the father has no idea of the child until a deputy serves him with papers - no that’s not ideal. But that is not in the area of child support. That is law. Courts.
This was back in the late '70’s when it wasn’t quite so easy to determine paternity. He had asked his then-wife for a divorce. She wanted to “work things out” so he agreed to try. Trying included sleeping with her. When the issues that had made him want a divorce were not addressed, he brought up the subject again. At which point she said “you can’t divorce me, I’m pregnant.” One of the issues was heavily suspected infidelity. I think the baby was his - she looked just like him, poor thing. But he had doubts. His daughter will never know of those doubts. It doesn’t matter now, she is his daughter.