Hey, if God actually said EXACTLY how long the distance around was, we would never finish the Bible!
“And the bowl was 10 cubits across and 31.4159265359757…”
et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseum
Remember, pi is an irrational number. Also, this passage was written with no concept of the Greek pi.
Our Bible would be a LOT more cumbersome if it was fully accurate. Pi goes on forever, so the Bible would never get finished.
Maybe THIS should be the Book of Numbers…! 
-Soup
God is omnipotent. He could write all of pi in a finite space if he wanted to. For that matter, since he controls the universe, he could just change the value of pi.
(And you had a grin in there, too, so I’ll assume you’re not 100% serious.)
Yet I am fascinated by the question of whether an omnipotent being could express irrational numbers in superhuman ways, such as writing “all of pi” in a finite space. What does “all of pi” mean? When is it that you’ve gotten it all down?
As for changing the value of pi - another kettle of worms. I’m interested in exploring the larger question of, what would the universe be like if the values of constants such as pi were different? I’m aware of intriguing claims, no doubt discussed somewhere on this board, that the universe appears “finely tuned” and could not exist if many of these constants were even slightly different.
Another thread for another time. After I do a lot of reading.
That may be, but we sure couldn’t understand it. If there was some superhuman way of expressing pi, than, logically, one would need superhuman insight to understand it. The question is, then, how does God convey it? I have no doubt that God could express pi in a finite space, but how would humans, in their supposed feeble minds, understand this?
-Soup
Me:
Soup:
Stop stealing stuff, Soup.
(For your punishment, say the above three times fast. ;))
Oops.
Stop stealing stuff, Soup.
Stop stealing stuff, Soup.
Stop stealing stuff, Soup.
Sorry about that.
Just for a bit more on the pi=3 thing…
From my interpretation of the Jewish perspective on things, there are three segments of the Bible. Chronicles (the source of the whole molten sea bit) is from the lowest ranking segment, Ketuvim (literally, Writings). These are considered to have been written by people who had been inspired by God at a level lower than that of prophecy. Their every word is not considered to be absolutely perfect in all detail. When the people writing Chronicles said that (in essence) a round object had measurements that lead to pi=3, it’s because those are the best measurements that they had. Or because they screwed up and gave the measurement of one dimension from the inside and one from the outside. The people writing it weren’t God, merely inspired at some level to write this history, and can’t be held to the same standard.
Of course, if this is all apikorsus, somebody who knows better please come tell me.
First of all, yes we all know that much of the bible is not in fact true. For example, the story of Adam & Eve was taken from an ancient egyptian myth. I believe that they adapted this myth into the bible to give us a story to show how powerful God is, it just kinda means that he could do this, they didn’t know how it started, so they decided to use something that showed how great the potential for their God is.
And on the idea of PI = 3, you stole that from the simpsons about a month ago. And to the best of my recollection pi= 3.141592653589793238462643383279 etc…
Wow, if I had seen the Simpsons episode on this topic, I would have attributed it properly. Which one was it? Must have missed it. As Chaim points out, the question’s about a thousand years old or more.
Whether the Bible is to be taken literally or not, is part of what’s under debate. There’s a divergence of opinion.
Me, personally? I’m perfecly willing to be convinced the Adam and Eve story is an allegory but so many people do insist it’s the literal truth (along with everything else in the Bible). GilaB your notes on the Ketuvim make a lot of sense to me. But Protestant fundamentalists simply do not play the game that way. It’s ALL literal truth to them.
From Kings Chapter 7, Verse 23:
From which one can infer either that Christians believe pi equals three, or that the brim extended .5407 cubits beyond the point where the circumference was measured. Which of these inferences you choose says a lot more about you, than about God, or Christians.
Tris
Tris: here’s my inference.
The measurements weren’t perfectly accurate.
This does say something about me: I’m not a literalist. The question of “what literalists believe” is important to me from a personal standpoint (my family).
As far as I can make out cmkeller was the only literalist in here. And I’ve regrettably chased him away.
Nobody but a literalist would have any issue at all with the Pi problem, I think. The rest of us are all content with the passage.
The irony, though, is most (Christian fundamentalist) literalists are not aware of most potential problems in the text. They don’t look for them. But why should they? They’re already happy in their view.
In general, we find whatever it is that we seek. “Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.” — Jesus
masonite:
Hardly. However, being a literalist Orthodox Jew, I have not had much time to post over this weekend, Saturday always being impossible and today being the day before a two-day holiday. I’ll post again on Wednesday, G-d willing.
You’re clearly new here if you think you could have chased me away so easily.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Yeah, I know I said I’d respond here Wednesday. Sorry; the thread scrolled off the front page and I forgot about it until now.
masonite:
It sounded to me like you were attempting to use the Pi issue to prove that anyone who takes the Bible literally is directly contradicting proven mathematical reality. When I pointed out a way that it could be taken literally without such contradiction, your response was to label that way “absurd” and “a joke.”
Apology accepted.
In addition, it’s not even the only Rabbinical explanation out there. However, it certainly addresses the issue.
Actually, it does mention the thickness: verse 26 of that chapter points out that it was a handbreadth thick. A handbreadth is 1/6 of a cubit, which would make the inner diameter 9 2/3 cubits. That, multiplied by pi, is right around 30 cubits (a bit more, but still less than 30 1/2, so such rounding is acceptable).
The Bible isn’t out to trick anyone or pose meaningless puzzles. Why might it have written an outer measurement for one and an inner measurement for the other? I couldn’t say for certain, but here’s a possibility: maybe it recorded the outer diameter to describe how much space the thing took up in the building (or on its wagon, as the case may be), but the inner circumference to illustrate its holding capacity.
(And speaking of rounding, another rabbinical opinion is that the measurements given are both of the outside, but that the figure that is rounded is not the circumference figure, but the diameter one. The diameter of a circle that has a circumference of 30 works out to be over 9.5, acceptably rounded up to 10.)
Congrats, Lib!
Still, it’s certainly legitimate to wonder why the Bible didn’t at least round to the nearest cubit. Hey, the Rabbis didn’t come up with the above answers without having had the question.
Chaim Mattis Keller
And related to the OP: sometimes it’s equally interesting to find out what fundies believe is in the Bible but really isn’t. For example, go ask the fundies in the church I used to attend (7th Day Adventist - a bunch of Bible-Totally-Inspired-by-God people if there ever were any) what Noah did while he built the ark. “He preached, of course. Preached to the wicked of their upcoming destruction.” Um, well, no, he didn’t. The Bible is mute on this point-gives no details as to what else Noah was doing while ark-building. As far as we know, Noah was a selfish bastard only out to save himself and his family. Yet ask most of the people in my church, and I’ll hazard many other people raised with a religious persuasion, and I’ll bet you’ll get close to the same answer.
Of course, human common sense dictates that he’d have said something - I’m sure Herman the neighbor might come over and ask, “Hey Noah, what’cha got there?” - but the point is that the Bible doesn’t say that. Yet many believe it.
Snicks
Yes, Snickers, those are interesting indeed. Another one is the “three” wise men. No such enumeration was ever made.
How long is a cubit?
“An ancient unit of linear measure, originally equal to the length of the forearm from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow, or about 17 to 22 inches (43 to 56 centimeters).”
It’s the distance from the elbow to the fingertip.
More ancient units of measure:
Palm- width of the hand
Span- The distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.
Hope that helps.
Main Entry: cu·bit
Pronunciation: 'kyü-b&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin cubitum elbow, cubit
Date: 14th century
: any of various ancient units of length based on the length of the forearm from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger and usually equal to about 18 inches (45.7 centimeters)
Your cubit may vary.
Bah.