I am surprise no one has gone to the boys homes to see if any kind of abuse is going there. Some kids will act out their anger on other kids if they’re being abused at home. Can you have your daughter transfer to another class or is there only one class in her grade? No children should have to subject to that kind of behavior in school , the boys should send home the next time they act up. Do you know how other parents feel about this , maybe some of you could get together and demand some kind of action to be taken .
I’m definitely going to have a sit down with the principal over this. I called her at like 330 on a Friday so I’m not surprised I haven’t heard back and probably won’t until Monday. I don’t know if I’d do any sort of legal threats, as I’m very non-confrontational and even this is pushing my comfort levels. So I found out a couple more things about the school and these boys in general.
As I said before, my nephew has been officially diagnosed with Asperger’s and is recognized as such by the school. Last year, my brother moved out into the country side away from the main town. His son has to take the ‘short bus’ because the normal bus is just too chaotic for him. Well, once they moved the principal at the time (now the superintendent) refused to have the bus go so far out of the way. My brother sat down with her and reminded her she had to accommodate his disability and she dug in her heels claiming it was too expensive to have the bus go out there. He pushed and pushed but she refused until he said ‘lawyer’ and ‘lawsuit’ and she finally budged.
I also asked my daughter about the two boys to try to get an idea of what happens with them when they act up. From her (which I take with a grain of salt given her age), the boys are in the office almost daily. They fight, get sent to the office for a bit and then right back to class where they sometimes fight again within the same day. I asked if they’ve ever been sent home and she said no. But she also was pretty upset today after school because her teacher told her class they probably won’t have a Halloween party because the boys wouldn’t listen to the teacher when they were trying to plan the party. And I don’t know why but that really upsets me. That her and the rest of the class are missing out on something like that because of those two and the TEACHER’S inability to control them.
As to the home life of the two boys. Turns out I kinda know the mother of one of them. She used to be the troop leader for the local Girl Scouts. I’ve been in her home before, which seemed VERY cluttered but other than that fairly normal. I doubt I could talk with her though as, again, I never see any other parents. As for having my daughter transferred to another class, I don’t really want to because she got lucky and got into a class with three of her good friends from the last 2 years and I know she loves being with them.
It’s an overall shitty situation that’s at a standstill right now until I speak to the principal. And honestly, I’m stressing about that because I told the teacher I’d give her a month to see about calming the boys down. So I feel like I’m going back on my word. 
as a non violent special needs student in grade and jr high (I wish the ada act would of happened when I was in hs I would of done so much better and my principal wouldn’t of thought I was such a PITA) I was placed with kids from juvenile hall… group homes ect and such (a teacher having to physically restrain a student once or twice a week wasn’t unusual) in fact they wanted to teach some of us self defense in case we got attacked ,
I’d give my kid a phone with video recording on it and have then use it for all of these incidents…
Bring a friend with you to the meeting. Introduce him as your lawyer; then he sits there through the whole time and never says anything. Just listens carefully. Might not even have to be a lawyer, just a witness.
Even though he says nothing, just his presence will convince the Principal of your seriousness. The Principal will be on the phone to the Superintendent the minute your meeting is over.
If the Principal refuses to meet if your attorney is present, that’s a telling sign. But it will still probably work to your advantage; emphasized to them that you are serious about this.
I would try to enlist other parents and as many as you can.
agreed. there is strength and mutual support in numbers
Even if there’s no “contact list,” go from car to car and get their names and email while they’re waiting at the end of the day. It might take a couple of weeks to get a bunch of them. Say you want a parents’ list and you’ll share with everyone when you’ve got it put together.
Wild-ass suggestion: on the assumption that these boys are disruptive/violentaway from school, too, any value in sending Child Protective Services to their home? Kids who are that violent are likely to experience it in the home IMO.
This worries me, what kind of home environment do those three kids have that they are so aggressive? I’ve known kids who were in a fine home but the family just happens to have some donkey in their ancestry (and with a lastname of Barn, the jokes write themselves), but they weren’t acting anywhere near that aggressively at that age. They got into fights occasionally and still have damn big mouths as grownups, but nowhere near as bad as what’s been described.
I think a lot of the suggestions here are, sorry to say, bullshit.
Schools are scared of public exposure and lawyers? Bullshit. Schools are scared of kids getting hurt and kids not getting educated. Schools are scared of resources being stretched even thinner so that shit like this happens.
Threaten with a lawyer or with withdrawing the kid, even without being able to back up threats? For christ’s sake, this is the strategy that crazy parents take. Principals are used to it coming from crazy parents. They won’t take it seriously.
This is a real problem. But it’s the tail end of the problem. You’ve got an overcrowded school that serves ( strongly suspect) children living in poverty and has insufficient resources available to serve these children. Kids with this sort of severe behavioral disorder need at least part-time one-on-one support. Transferring one child to another class very rarely works, IME: it just means that child’s behavioral disruptions disrupt a different class instead of the one your child is in. Principals are understandably loath to do this.
Sometimes, for some unknown reason, IME, you get two boys who really set each other off. We have two in the pre-K where I’m working now. The are in separate classes. One has an ADD diagnosis, but takes medication, and is fine by himself. The other is pretty cheeky, but can control himself when he tries. They constantly fo after each other if they wind up on the playground together. The weird thing that their parents say they know each other outside of school, and play well when it’s just the two of them. Maybe the parents are lying, I couldn’t tell you. All I know, is that their teachers have to coordinate their time on the playground and the big playroom, so they aren’t together.
When I worked briefly in the dormitory at the Deaf school (briefly, because it paid crap, and I started to get offers to interpret, so I decided to quit and try freelance interpreting full-time), there were two boys who could not be in the same room together there as well. Constant physical confrontations. Constant accident reports.
Even in the Army, you’d sometimes get men (18-year-olds, but nonetheless, you’d think they’d have more self control than 4- or 9-year-olds) who got moved around to keep them separate.
There are probably girls like this too, but it manifests in ways less disruptive to the rest of the group.
Anyway, it could just be something weird about these two boys, and separating them would go a long way toward solving the problem.
I agree that separating the boys via swapping would be unfair to the innocent kid who has to change classes.
However, I would still push for separating the boys by simply moving one into the already-full class. Sure, that class will have one student too many, but this seems to be the best overall solution, disruption-wise.
mmm
Not gonna happen. There are probably union rules about how many kids a teacher can be assigned; it would also screw up their precious reporting by having to have an exception to the orderly distribution of kids and classrooms. Administrators live, die and get promoted by how tidy their record is, no matter what the numbers conceal.
There was recently a similar discussion on another board I post on, and several teachers said, in effect, “Maybe this child is covered under an IEP or 504, but I have NEVER heard of an IEP that allows a child to assault other children, or vandalize or steal their belongings” (the latter was the bigger issue here).
I’d suggest consulting a lawyer, and going to the press, preferably en masse, if other measures fail.
p.s. Are either of the kids from a wealthy or prominent family, the sibling of a champion athlete, and/or a member of a protected ethnic or racial class? This may be part of the reason why the people who run the school appear to have their hands tied.
In our district, this sort of behavior gets the kids sent to the ALC - Alternative Learning Center - and out of the regular classroom. But they don’t like doing it. The ALC doesn’t have spaces for all the kids it needs to serve. Its expensive on a per student basis. And kids who end up there don’t usually have positive outcomes - where if the kid outgrows the behavior and stays in regular school, they might get lucky.
Find out what your district does with kids who can’t be in a regular classroom. Then explain to the principal and the superintendent that you and the other parents are documenting every instance you are told about by your kids of these kids acting out. That, understanding that the school cannot tell you what is going on, the parents will be meeting regularly to compare reports they get form their children. Initial reports will be recorded with a computer timestamp - those reports will be compared across multiple witnesses. Should anyone get hurt, should any of your kids suffer adverse consequences, you will be exploring legal options.
I know this because my daughter had a girl who threw chairs in kindergarten - it too until middle school for the ALC to become involved. And I had a friend whose nephew ended up in the ALC - also for violent behavior to other students.
I’m sorry, but this is more nonsense. Do you have any basis at all for any of the claims or suggestions you’ve made in this thread?
An IEP isn’t going to allow assault; however, it will lay out how much time a child may be out of regular instruction. Suspending a child with an IEP too often can lead to the child not attending enough instructional hours and thereby the school’s running afoul of federal law.
Consult a lawyer all you want, but I strongly suspect that won’t lead to any action. As for going to the press, can anyone point to any case in which a media source has reported on an elementary school kid getting in lots of fights, much less a case in which a district responded to such media reports by moving a kid to a different classroom?
If I were talking to the teacher, I’d have a lot of questions about classroom management. If it were a colleague, I’d be making all sorts of offers about letting kids take a chill time in my own room (this is actually a pretty common offer that I’ve both made and received, depending my year’s class makeup). If it’s a parent, I’d describe my classroom management approach and ask whether their kid has been targeted.
But ultimately, if your city doesn’t have effective anti-poverty programs and also doesn’t have sufficient school funding to allow for lots of one-on-one support, I am convinced there are going to be cases like this in the schools. The solution can best be ameliorated in the school with additional adult support. It can best be prevented through societal programs.
Can you volunteer in the classroom? Sometimes just having an extra adult in the room can help the teacher focus attention on mediating.
(my bold)
This may be true, but districts will run rough shod over this all day long. I had to get an attorney in order to get my son actually handled appropriately rather than just repeatedly suspended.
It sounds like the OP is uncomfortable getting an attorney, but it was absolutely the only thing in the end that forced the school and the district to meet their Federal and State mandated obligations to my son. I don’t know whether these boys have IEPs or 504s that are being ignored (they may or may not), but it would not surprise me in the slightest.
This is all good advice.
I agree with this, but, oddly, there are limits on what is allowed in some states (I can’t speak to the ones I haven’t lived in), particularly if IEP/504 students are involved. It’s actually somewhat maddening.
To the OP, I urge you to push as hard as you can, past the point where you feel comfortable. My son had a delayed diagnosis and suffered years of bullying and setbacks at school because I did not suck it up, put on my big girl pants and have hard conversations that were difficult for me. Your child deserves to be safe at school. Work with her teacher, and other parents. Work with her principal. Involve the district, the Teacher’s Union, the PTA, and the School Board. Do not feel guilty about continuing to have these conversations now, when her teacher asked for a month.
Have you considered holding a students’ strike? They’re common around here, and they often work.
Just have all the parents in the class keep their kids at home until the disruptive elements are removed. Claim that you’re doing it for your children’s safety, and make sure you inform the local media - they’ll lap it up. I give the school a week until they fold.
There’s a huge difference between, “My son is not getting services as required by IDEA and his IEP,” and, “My daughter is traumatized by witnessing violence in the classroom.” In the former, you succeeded because there was a specific law with specific penalties for noncompliance, and you had full access to the records of the students involved. In the latter, there’s no such legislation (that I’m aware of), and the OP doesn’t have access to the relevant student records, per FERPA.
This is all good advice, I think. I’d suggest going up the chain of command as high as you can, link by link. Be aware, however, that you may reach the point of state legislatures, and asking them to fund additional staff in the schools. This is a very real problem, but I maintain it’s created in large part by understaffing schools.
Again–can anyone show any evidence of a media campaign that succeeded at changing classroom management/disciplinary styles to reduce violence in an elementary school? I really really don’t think this is reasonable advice.
One more thought: is this a relatively new teacher? If so, gentle suggestions that she might need some support in classroom management might be in line. (I’m totally unsure, though, that this is reasonable–the description of the kids’ behavior is such that short of full-on training in handling kids with behavior disorders, classroom management may not have much to do with it).