So my daughter is in third grade, so all the kids in her class are between 8 and 9 years old. Well, lately she’s been coming home overly upset about two boys in her class. She tells me how they never listen to the teacher or follow the rules and they often make the rest of the class miss out on special things because of their misbehavior. Now, my daughter is overly sensitive and overly focused on EVERYONE following the rules. I don’t know why but it’s the way she is, so I figured maybe she was just getting upset over boys rough-housing or just acting up. So I made an appointment to see her teacher during lunch to clear things up and get the whole story.
I get there a bit early and I’m waiting with my daughter as the kids line up to go to lunch, just kinda talking to her. When suddenly one boy just goes after another. I’m talking on the ground, full on punching and kicking. The other boy is returning all of this and they get separated by teachers. Even after that, one of the boys is flipping up the other yelling BITCH!! BITCH!! and just screaming it. I’ve never seen such an angry kid before. He refused to stop when the teachers told him to and refused to go to the office and instead ran off and hid in another classroom. As I’m standing there just kinda in shock, one of the little girls sighs and said “I’m sorry you had to see that. That happens all the time.”
So the kids go off to lunch and I sit down with the teacher and obviously am now more concerned. The boy hasn’t done anything to my daughter directly but no kid should have to see that happening on a regular basis. I ask why the boys haven’t been sent to separate classes since it only happens between them and am told that all the other classes are full. She then shows me an article from the local paper about how the school was at the brim and they didn’t have enough room for the kids. With a quote from the superintendent saying “Oh hey it’s great. We get $7k for each kid! The more the merrier!” more or less. And the teacher told me what I witnessed was ‘tame’ compared to what those two get into. Wtf? It didn’t occur to me but I’m thinking now why wasn’t that kid expelled? According to the teacher, he has an older and younger brother and they both are the exact same way. She asked me to give her a month to implement some new…calming…program?? I agreed at the meeting but the more I think about it the more I’m getting upset over how this is being handled.
tldr my daughter’s class has two hugely violent boys constantly disrupting class and I dunno how to handle it.
Wow. I have a fifth grader and a seventh grade and I’ve never heard of anything like that being tolerated. I know elementary schools are very different, but if this were happening at my kid’s school I would set up a meeting with the principal. The teacher should not be having to handle this on her own, which is what it sounds like. And it is not an acceptable environment for the rest of the kids.
Are you able to talk to some of the other parents? If there is a concerted effort to deal with the situation it might help.
I suppose a third grader could be that hostile and physical from “normal” causes, but it sounds like one or both of these boys are special-needs.
Definitely go higher on the [del]fool[/del] food chain, to the principal at least, and manage to work in the word “lawyer” if the first five minutes aren’t productive. Schools are terrified of two things: the general public finding out how badly they manage their domains, and lawyers.
If the kid has some kind of diagnosis that makes him “disabled,” he can’t be expelled, and the diagnosis can’t be shared with another parent, because of HIPAA, so there is no way the OP will learn about it from the teacher or principal. The parent might volunteer it.
Disabled students are entitled to be educated in the “least restrictive environment.” There not equivalent public law guaranteeing any particular environment to non-disabled students.
I’m waiting for someone to make a court case arguing that non-disabled students are also entitled to the “least restrictive environment,” and when behavior measures taken to reign in problematic students with disabilities create a “restrictive” environment for a whole class, it’s not fair.
FWIW, though, sometimes in order to remain in a regular classroom, students who have committed a violent act have to be medicated in order to remain in a regular classroom, even if they have a diagnosis.
As far as moving another student to make room, who? if you were the parent of a child in another class, would you want your kid’s semester disrupted because of some other kid’s behavior problem? They are possibly hoping someone will move from one of the other classes, and then they can move one of the other boys.
What they probably need to do in the meantime is hire a classroom aide with experience with difficult kids, who can run interference. It’ll cost money, but it’ll do a world of good, I’d bet.
(bolding mine)As an aside, I have to ask the OP how her successful her local school district is in getting school bond measures passed? Are her schools adequately funded for what is expected of them?
Go to the Principal. It’s unlikely the teacher has the authority to make classroom changes on her own. Don’t take “no” from someone not authorized to say “yes”.
Explain the specific impact this is having on your daughter’s emotional well-being and learning environment. It’s not that you just don’t like the bad behavior, but it’s having a concrete impact on her. Come with details- she’s upset, stomach aches, doesn’t get her work done in class- whatever.
Get a group of parents and go to the principal and then go to the school board if you get no satisfaction. School Boards are so scared of law suits that they only acquiesce to the larger numbers. My wife is a 3rd grade teacher and I’ve heard this same story far too many times.
As someone pointed out upthread, the classroom teacher probably isn’t authorized to make any meaningful changes.
If you speak with the principal, follow up in writing. If either you or the principal suggests a solution, set a date by which the solution will be implemented.
Don’t be afraid to threaten or pursue legal action. A strongly-worded letter from a lawyer - preferably one with a track record for winning suits brought by parents - is almost certainly the fastest way to induce the school administration to make changes. By and large, administrators don’t care how individual kids are doing in the classroom, but they are terrified of lawsuits. You probably don’t want to be “that parent,” but the situation you describe is a legitimate threat to your daughter’s physical well-being and to her ability to take full advantage of a proper classroom environment.
First I would contact other parents with children in the classroom. Chances are you’re not the only one who is disturbed by this. Perhaps if a small delegation of concerned parents were to approach the principal with the ‘suggestion’ that these two be separated into different classrooms - maybe there’s a parent/student in the same grade with a different teacher that isn’t happy with his or her placement and would agree to swap teachers. Enlisting the assistance of other parents brings additional political pressure and makes it less likely you’ll be dismissed as a lone whiner. If no help from the principal I agree with others to take it up the food chain (maybe the Superintendent or even the school board)
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I’m gonna call the principal after school to see if we can arrange a meeting. But in the meantime, I spoke with my brother who has two kids at the school too. He wasn’t supposed at what I saw and advised me too just give up. Apparently he had an issue last year with some boys bullying his son (who has aspergers). He went to the principal who basically Dodd nothing and then he went to the superintendent. She apparently told him they don’t suspend or expel students here because they don’t want to lose the funding for that child. Given the quote from here i mentioned in the op, that doesn’t surprise me. I don’t have any way of contacting any other parents either cause there’s no contact list or anything. We’ll see what comes of me talking to the principal.
If the principal is that obsessed with dollar signs, threaten to take your daughter out of the school if something isn’t done. Is there a local charter school or magnet school, or does your district have school choice? there may be a cheap alternative, so your only alternatives aren’t expensive private schools or homeschooling, and it won’t be an empty threat.
Still, even if it’s an empty threat, the principal won’t know that.
Someone’s overseeing the Superintendent. If the Superintendent has already told another parent they won’t expel problem kids because money, it’s already time to start shaking the tree and go over his head.
Kids displaying this kind of behavior in school, are most likely learning it at home. You have the names of at least two of these kids, perhaps a call to your local family services department is due? Even if the school manages to get their shit together in regards to handling these kids on premises, it won’t be long term help if they’re coming from and going back home to a hell hole every day.
There’s some good stuff here. I’ll throw in some more to make it complicated - actually, speaking from experience, I’m trying help.
It sounds like at least one of the kids, if not both, should have a diagnosis. Furthermore, even at that age WITH a diagnosis, that sort of behavior should get them a suspension (says the mother of the autistic child).
Complications ensue when: the parents are unaware that their child needs to be diagnosed and do not petition the school in writing to do the testing in order to get the diagnosis. One or both children may not be diagnosed for this reason. Parents are frequently unaware of their rights.
Complications ensue when: the school is aware that the child has issues but does not take appropriate measures to notify the parent or otherwise is lax in fulfilling their obligations to the student or the community. Example - if children are normally suspended for physically assaulting another student (normally this is true), once a child has a set number of suspensions, a review is mandated to determine if the child should be tested. If this behavior is occurring daily, this should have happened weeks ago.
Complications ensue when: the school is aware and notifies the parents, but the parents are not willing participants. “There is nothing wrong with my child.” Note that Situation 3 should still occur.
You should:
Email the teacher and principal (why? you want it in writing), cc the district.
-Why is there no full-time aide in my daughter’s classroom? The situation is clearly dangerous.
-Why are the students allowed to remain in classroom once inappropriate behavior has occurred?
-What is being done to address the recurring behavior problems?
-Notify them in writing that you will be retaining an attorney to help you resolve these issues if they do not address them immediately. They generally have 10 days to get back to you in writing.
Find an attorney. I had to get one for my son. Yes, disabled students are entitled to an equivalent education (which he wasn’t getting). They are not entitled to terrorize a classroom (if that is what is happening). I can attest that bringing the district in, doing it in writing, and using an attorney will solve your problems a lot faster than just a sit down with the principal. I sat down with the principal for a year before and wasn’t able to even get my son tested. Putting it in writing at the district made things happen at light speed.
By all means, the OP can consult an attorney to discuss her options, if she’s so inclined. I’m pessimistic that a lawyer can actually be of use here, however. What legal action could a lawyer credibly threaten to bring? What’s the legal right of the OP that’s being infringed? The OP can’t enforce any rights the boys may have. If the OP’s child is not herself being bullied or harmed, I think that a court will be reluctant to take on a generalized obligation of classroom discipline.