It’s probably not the way you want the other kids to learn (kind of “scared straight”), but if the boys do get expelled-- or even a long-term suspension-- the rest of the class will note that in the long run, the behavior is not tolerated.
I’m sorry you are in this dilemma.
I’m surprised that she told you that much–if she verified where they were in the process with a specific student, she’s coming dangerously close to, if not actually, violating the student’s federal privacy rights. That is the sort of thing that could open her up to a lawsuit, since there’s an actual law being violated.
That said, I’m glad to hear they’re taking the situation seriously. These are tremendously difficult problems for everyone, but most especially for the poor child who finds himself so out of control and unable to stop. I hope they find a way to give him the help he so clearly needs.
Could you follow up and ask if the 2 boys can be separated? I understand that there are concerns about the unfairness of moving a child from another classroom into this one, but this seems a clear “needs of the many” situation. (Not up to me to problem solve which child to switch with for the move, but perhaps there is a child who needs to be challenged in a 3rd grade class who would do well being exposed to some of the 4th grade material on offer in your daughter’s 4th grade class.)
Good luck. I hope this all improves soon.
Side bar for LHOD - as I think I noted above, unfortunately I have seen consistent evidence over the last few years that many educators either do not know (training) or do not care about Federal and State law in these matters. It is both sad and frustrating. Parents of course, often have no way of knowing. Yet another course that should be required for parenting - know the laws that impact the education and other matters pertaining to your child while at school. 
I think you are conflating two distinct (related, but still distinct) issues.
The school has to address what’s the matter with those two boys, whether that is suspension or expulsion or whatever. You are correct that the school probably can’t discuss much of what they are doing in that regard.
However, there’s a second situation here to be addressed, and that’s all of the OTHER kids in the class who are exposed to the violence and mayhem on an ongoing basis. Remember them? The OP has not said any word about any efforts to protect them, or assist them, or even talk to them about the ramifications of what they have to go through. What efforts do you think they are doing for those children that they can’t even mention to the parents of those same children?
Who’s the third party? Any lawsuit would be a parent suing as next friend of her own child, for failure to provide a safe environment for HER OWN CHILD. There’s plenty of precedent for a school being sued because employees knew or should have known about the violent tendencies of another student–that’s been pretty much the basis for a number of lawsuit payouts over bullying, for example.
Yeah, but in that case, it’s not usually a bystander suing. It’s the kid being bullied.
I think a better basis for a lawsuit is interference with instruction and teacher-time. If the teacher is spending so much time on damage-control, that she can’t teach, that’s a problem for everyone else.
Who’s suffering from the bullying, though? According to the OP, her own child is coming home from school “overly upset” about what’s going on in her classroom, and some of the recent research on the psychological effects of bullying (see here, e.g.) says that bystanders may suffer as much as the targets.
Plus, if one of the boys is really that far out of control (" I’ve never seen such an angry kid before. He refused to stop when the teachers told him to and refused to go to the office and instead ran off"), why should OP believe her child won’t ever be a target, or at least possibly in the line of fire when the kid goes off? If the school is aware of the potential for violence and doesn’t take proactive steps to protect the other kids who might be future victims, what do you think should happen if one of those other kids is physically injured?
A number of lawsuit payouts have been over bullying when the plaintiff is the parent of a student witnessing the bullying. That number is zero.
Edit: importantly, the OP is not describing bullying, according to most common definitions. Bullying involves an imbalance of power between attacker and victim. When two kids are going at each other, that’s not bullying, that’s fighting–a related but different behavior.
It might be a little deep into the school year for this to be a possibility, but in my daughter’s elementary school there’s a big kerfuffle over every year about which teacher your kid will get the following year. Not everyone wants the same teacher, either, for all kinds of reasons, and there’s also jockeying to transfer when possible. It would not surprise me if the parents of a kid in another class would welcome the opportunity to transfer in, especially if this (apparently widely known) issue were to go away as a result.
This story really surprises me. I’m no expert in elementary education and I know states and districts vary, but in my daughter’s school there is no tolerance of any physical violence, and my daughter’s never seen any. And I do ask her from time to time.
And if you meet with the principal, record the conversation with a voice recorder (assuming your state allows it).
“No tolerance” can be very hard to maintain. I once had a child that was consistently committing low levels of violence, and various consequences weren’t working, so I started keeping the child with me at recess for the entire recess. He could play, he just couldn’t venture more than 10’ from me. Worked great the first day, and, happy with my solution, I got kids to line up and we went inside. At which point someone told me he’d punched her in the line.
What do you do?
Certainly there’s in-school suspension, out-of-school suspension, behavior plans, expulsion. But we’re also legally responsible for providing a full education for the child who commits violence, and resources are limited.
I was lucky. I had no other violent children in my class. I put even more direct supervision on him. Sure, that meant I had less ability to give my attention to kids who were behaving well, but I take safety seriously, and if everyone’s education suffered a bit because of my vulture-like hovering over the kid with violent tendencies, well, I justified it by saying that their education would suffer more from fearing for their safety.
A neighboring teacher that year had at least three children who were violent. It was a hard year.
Does your child’s school expel students who commit violence? If not, what does “no tolerance” mean? If so, how do they fulfill their educational responsibilities to the expelled child?
I’m glad your daughter hasn’t seen violence. There’s a very good chance that that reflects your community or even your daughter’s luck rather than your school’s policies. What are your thoughts?
:rolleyes: