First, the ‘Confederate Flag’ we all know and recognise was NOT the national flag of the Confederacy like the swastika flag was for the third reich. It was the Confederate naval jack and battle flag, which common soldiers rallied around in the hell of 19th century warfare. I think it’s horribly amusing that I could fly the legitimate first flag of the Confederacy (which BTW is the flag known as the ‘stars and bars’), with it’s political implications, right over my house and I doubt one person in a hundred would even look twice at it. Second, I have no problem whatsoever with the veterans and family of the Wehrmacht using their unit battle flags, the iron cross or any other symbol of Germany to recognise their courage and sacrifice in the face of a horrible horrible war. They were just people like you and me and deserve that much. The Confederate Flag represents racism and slavery TO YOU, that YOU think so doesn’t make it true for everybody… there is no one way to think about it. All it says about you is that some small minded, hateful bigots have managed to condition you to think a certain way about a flag and hound other folks (the vast majority IMO)who use that flag with honorable or at the very least mundane intentions. Unbelievable.
:applause:
What should be easy to believe is that the reason people call the battle flag the “Confederate Flag” is because they believe it represents the Confederacy. It’s just as easy to believe that those who reject the despicable ideology of the Confederacy resent that symbol. It represents racism. Perhaps not eveyone that displays it is racist but it’s hardly a coincidence that it became so popular only after the civil rights movement gained momentum. Those who fly a symbol of bigotry have no room to complain about accusations of bigotry.
I have never heard of any Northern prison camp worse than Andersonville and would appreciate information on the topic. Any cites for worse than usual corruption in the Reconstruction governments would be welcome as well. Note though that I will be comparing that not only to the corruption of Northern state governments of the day and also the fact that antebellum Southern governments confiscated people. From what I have read the main problem many Americans ( North, South, and West ) had with ( Congressional ) Reconstruction is that it insisted upon treating blacks as people. Unfortunately many of us still resent equal treatment for all and until we purge this hatred from our hearts I expect to continue to see the Confederate Flag. At least I hope so; even racists deserve freedom of speech.
That people ‘believe’ that the flag represents the Confederate government only proves that alot of people can be ignorant and wrong about something. That isn’t what this board is about. And again we have another person stating in black and white absolutes that the ‘confederate flag’ represents racism PERIOD and nothing else. I will say this one more time, it represents ALOT of things to ALOT of people, your interpretation is not the correct one simply because you happen to hold it and other people may use that flag for honorable purposes. Let them do so and do NOT generalise or stereotype people just because of the use of a controversial symbol. Most people who have a confederate flag somewhere, an article of clothing with the flag on it, a bumper sticker with the flag ect ARE NOT RACIST and use the flag to mean something else. Almost every symbol on the planet has been used or subverted for despicable reasons, the christian cross, the muslim crescent moon, the American Flag… hell even the SWASTIKA is an ancient symbol in many cultures for the sun. If you let the lowest filth on the planet assume ownership of these symbols and reject them as tainted you’re just doing them a favor. The ‘confederate flag’ was used in Confederate cemetaries, in veterans parades and in civic groups for decades before the civil rights movement had bigots appropriate it for their use. As for northern prison camps on par or worse than Andersonville you only need google for “Camp Douglas” and “Point Lookout Prison”. Camp Douglas had the highest mortality rate of any prison during the war, north or south at 10 percent. 1 in 5 prisoners died there during the entire war. They deprived the inmates clothing to discourage escape attempts, particularly cruel as Camp Douglas was located on the shores of Lake Michigan near Chicago where I believe winters get a bit more rough than in southern Georgia. Conditions in prison camps during the civil war were unbelievably cruel and harsh no matter what side you were on, there was no excuse for them… and the North certainly had the resources to make conditions better had they wanted. I don’t have time to go into the specifics about injustices during the Reconstruction, this thread has already eaten more time that I would like.
I don’t live anywhere near the south.
But I see Confederate flags on trucks every day.
No pride of heritage here.
I’d say about 1/2 the time it’s someone just being an ass to show off a supposed ‘rebel’ attitude.
Other times it’s purely a racist statement.
I don’t buy the whole ‘showing pride for my ancestors’ bit. I don’t see northerners hanging out Union flags. Huge pictures of Grant in the living room. Maybe I’m just only seeing a corrupt version of it.
**Uh huh… and the Statue of Liberty doesn’t represent freedom because back in 1776 Dame Liberty was invariably shown with cap and pole instead of crown and torch. Sorry, symbolism doesn’t work that way. The Confederate Flag represents the Confederacy precisely because people believe that it does.
Didn’t say that. Said that it does represent racism not that it can’t mean anything else. It, like any other symbol, can represent anything you like.
Sure, but it still represents racism at the same time. Share a symbol with that if you wish. Just don’t complain if you get painted with the same brush. I don’t consider it stereotyping, just a natural assumption based on the fact that they are willing to display a symbol with connotations of racial superiority. Perhaps they aren’t white supremacists, we don’t know for sure.
Do you have any evidence that this is true?
And nonracists showing support by displaying racist symbols doesn’t?
But not prominently in everyday life until the civil rights movement which lends credence to it being mostly displayed as a symbol of white power. Shown appropriately symbols can avoid misinterpretation and subversion. The battle flag is perfectly suitable in Civil War reenactments. But when I see it it’s prominently displayed without context. On trucks, for the most part.
Thanks for the heads up on the prison camps.
Oh, for the love of God, this is ridiculous. By what possible reason, 2sense, is it somehow okay to smear someone else based on connotations which you have attached to a symbol rather than connotations which they attach to it?
Frankly, you ought to be ashamed of your own willingness to defend labeling someone as a racist because a symbol he or she admires is given racist interpretations by other people.
You may be right about that. Wyoming, is that in the United States or Canada? 
The big question for me is, wtf? Flags on vehicles? I have NO outward modifications to my vehicle, adornment wise, except those required by law. I can preach without guilt. It is quite possible that Florida is one of the least “rebel” places in the South. It might be an excellent place for the New Union under Dean to find converts from the Old Confederacy. Traitorous rogues. Some of the belles down here are starting to get the vapors.
Hmmm, silly song lyrics for this effort?
“The Deanil went down to Georgia, he was lookin’ for some votes to steal. He was in a bind, he was way behind, he was lookin’ to make a deal.”
For non-US dopers, here’s the deal.
Georgia. That says it all, I think. Flag fight!
South Carolina, well, they always want a rematch.
Mississippi “Rebels” Are their military leaders in open insurrection? I think so. Consider the Colonel armed and dangerous. That “walking” stick and graying beard conceal his true nature. His death warrant has been signed. Yet, he continues to elude authorities. He has nothing left to lose. Yes, hate stickers and political propaganda supporting the open overthrow of the US government – on display for all to see!.
Just a game?
The Confederate flag wasn’t the flag marched out during the War.
It was the flag marched out when folks wanted to keep black kids from going to school with white kids.
I’m from the South, and I don’t like the Confederate flag. You can be the nicest, most liberal person in the world, but when you’re wearing a Confederate t-shirt, you look the exact same as a KKK member or a racist redneck to me.
I’ve see people–brave people–driving trucks with Confederate flags here in Newark. I passed by a little house adorned with a giant confederate flag in Ithaca, NY of all places. I wish as a Southerner I could feel the regional pride they must feel, but I can’t. I can’t get the historical connotations of the flag out of my head.
I was glad when they changed Georgia’s flag, and hope to hell they don’t change it back.
shrugs As long as you’re not willing to label these flag-fliers as racists on that basis alone, monstro, I have no problem with that view. I am not comfortable, in general, seeing the Confederate flag flown, because it does have negative connotations for me, but I am not willing to assume that someone who does fly it is a racist, at least in the absence of further evidence.
As in other threads on a similar topic, I would like to point out that the OP is a non-southerner. Contrary to what some believe it is not southerners that bring up such subjects. I have yet to see someone post a thread asking something like "Why can’t I fly my confederate flag?"
I sure would like a cite for this statement. When I was 9 years old (1947) my family moved from Ohio to Atlanta. As I remember the confederate flag was displayed in our schools and in many other places. I don’t remember the flag being a subject of the early civil rights movement (Martin Luther King was from Atlanta.) It should also be noted that except for during elections nobody had bumper stickers on their cars prior to the 1960’s. The first one I remember seeing said “I Like Ike”.
There are 480,000 people in Wyoming and 98% of them are white. That means that less than 10,000 are minorities and my guess is that a very large portion of those are Native Americans.
IMHO they are more than likely bored to death or like you say being rebellious, which southerners could relate to.
Judging from what you are trying to say here, I can only surmise that you are simply misinformed.
The only validity to this statement is that two states changed their flags to incorporate the confederate flag in response to the civil rights movement. I mention this in regards to Beagle including the Mississippi flag with the flags of those two states. The Mississippi flag has incorporated the confederate flag since back in the 1890’s. [sup]the flag wasn’t “offical” until 2000[/sup]
Here are some cites for you on this subject:
[ul][li] ** online encylcopedia**[/li][li]** what southerners thought back then.**[/li][li]** Fredrick Douglass’ remarks on reconstruction.**[/ul][/li]
Here are a couple of things that southerners complain about
[ul][li] That Lincoln would have made it easy for the southern states to rejoin the union. After all he didn’t believe that they had the right to secede in the first place. If you think there may be a conspiracy theory involved with Lincoln being shot, you are probably correct. Johnson made it harder, but many northerners thought he was being too lenient and so he was impeached. [/li][li] Occupation by Union Troops[/li][li] Disbanding local governments.[/li][li]Carpetbaggers & Scallawags[/li][li]Corruption in the Republican Party[/ul][/li]There was some truth in all of these claims, thus the fact that reconstruction is more a part of southern resentment than losing the war. IMHO most southerners agree with Zoe that the North should have won. But they are proud of the fact that it was one hell of a fight.
The above link explains the history behind the two flags of the Confederacy: the one flown during the Civil War and the one flown in more recent times.
This I find quite telling:
People who associate the flag with the Nazi swastika aren’t crazies in left field. And people who find pride in the flag probably need to question why, since it didn’t really represent their ancestors all that much.
I don’t have a problem with people flying the flag in their homes. Hell, if you want to fly in on your car, go right ahead. But people shouldn’t have to look at that thing flying on government buildings. It shouldn’t represent people as a state flag. It simply should not. And I don’t understand why this is still an issue of debate.
It’s an issue because it irritates some people. 
I’m providing two points of view on Camp Douglas. I can understand why you might not have heard about it. There is precious little on the internet. The second article addresses why that may be true.
There is this link which describes how the prisoners settled down into their “quiet and comfortable” life and played leap frog and marbles – I’m not kidding:
http://www.iltrails.org/../camp_douglas.htm
And there is this link with the “Dixie flags” :rolleyes: at the top that is an immediate turn-off to me. I guess you could say it is a red flag. But this fits more closely with the stories that were passed on to me from two generations ago. It is an article by Pritchett Ford. Some of it is drawn from the book To Die in Chicago by George Levy (1994). Levy served as Assistant Attorney General of the State of Illinois.
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2757/html/camp.htm
There has been research done comparing Andersonville and Douglas, but I have not yet found it on the internet: A comparative study of conditions at two Civil War prison camps : Camp Douglas, Chicago, Illinois and Camp Sumpter, Andersonville, Georgia. 1979. by Kubalanza, Joan Marie G., M.A. Thesis, DePaul Univ.
I do know that when my grandfather was taken to Camp Douglas, he was in good health. He had joined the Confederate Army when he was underage. He had fought at the Battle of Stones River and was at Shiloh. But when his age was discovered, he was sent home. When he reached the right age (18?) he was on his way back when he was taken prisoner. By the time he was released, he was almost dead of disease. So it wasn’t just those who were in frail condition that died of disease, as the first article might lead you to believe. Nor did all of them just decide to sit the war out.
BTW, my father, although “a true son of the Confederacy” as the offspring were called, refused to join the Sons of the Confederacy and I have never pursued membership in the United Daughters of the Confederacy. It was a point of honor in my family. But I can’t draw that line for anyone else.
It would be ridiculous if I were the only one who connected the flag with racism. Of course, if that were the case we wouldn’t be having this discussion. What is ridiculous is pretending the racist connotation doesn’t exist. It does and everyone knows it.
And I haven’t smeared anyone. I have acknowledged that I can’t be sure those carelessly displaying the symbol are racists but they are still spreading hate, even if unintentionally. So they may merely be assholes. Shame on them.
Harumph! I can’t cite and so withdraw my assertion that the confederate flag was less prominent before the sixties. Still, in looking I did find this quote from cultural historian Edward Linenthal: “…it seems to me that those who argue that Confederate symbolism was used as part of the racist reaction to the Civil Rights movement are absolutely correct.”
I will look over your historical links when I get more time. And those from you as well, Zoe. Thanks!
And this is relevant how exactly? Because lots of people associate an image with a symbol, it’s okay to assume that someone who uses that symbol automatically does likewise? No, it’s still ridiculous. Period.
I didn’t mean to imply that you, personally, had done so. Careless wording on my part, evidently. What you have done, though, is said that it’s okay to smear someone on rather flimsy pretexts, which is almost as bad.
Now you’ve smeared someone. In fact, a whole big group of someones. On flimsy pretexts. And you have the gall to cast aspersions on their character?
I would suggest, in fact, that people who choose to use a symbol to which you attach negative connotations are perfectly justified in using it anyway. I would also suggest that if you take offense, the problem lies with your thin skin, and not with their assholishness.
I would ALSO suggest that your willingness to assume that people who use a symbol you disapprove of are either racists or assholes is itself a prejudiced position.
Look, there was NOTHING respectable about the South’s cause because it included slavery. I am trying to be fair and not to attack the relatives of people who died in the Civil War, but really, the NICEST thing you can say about any Confederate veteran in relation to their participation in the Civil War was that he was misguided, and for a LOT of Confederate veterans we need not extend that degree of niceness, because a lot of them wholeheartedly approved of slavery.
Now, as to folks in the present who say they revere the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of their ancestor’s bravery, the NICEST thing we can say about them is that they are misguided, and for many, we need not extend that degree of niceness, because they are in fact just covering up for racism.
So… racism practiced under the US flag, from Slavery during the Civil War in the border states and in the country as a whole since it’s inception, to the Jim Crow era, to the genocide of native Americans, to the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII ect. ect. is acknowledged but it’s ok and even encouraged to fly the flag of the country and people who condoned those actions while in contrast the Confederate battle flag with no official political ties at all to the Confederate government (which only existed for 5 years anyway and was utterly defeated) is an enduring symbol of racism and slavery that should never be worn or displayed and only be viewed with contempt. Despite the years of prior use as a symbol of southern heritage and pride (proven in threads above). Because… people see it that way… yeah, everybody sees it that way… because that’s the way it is… so you should see it that way and not use it… because it’s racist… yeah… so if it’s racist and you use it, you must be racist too… Got ya… it’s all clear to me now…
You just pointed out the utter stupidity of racism here. I’ve never understood it myself. But I do know some people that hate minorities every much as a deep south Klan member. They clearly use the flag as a racist statement. When the Church of the Creator was sued a nice person from Wyoming offered to build them a new headquarters here. Hell my uncle will sit around and make cracks about ‘niggers’ while watching basketball.