This isn’t exactly clear. Are you saying that the details of a particular hypothetical UHC plan might allow it to be a wise policy?
Thanks. I of course disagree that the Vatican is the sole source for understanding what the Gospel calls us to do, but that’s not what I asked, and you did answer me fairly – so thank you for doing so.
Of course it is. It’s what what the majority of the People wanted. It drizzled through all three branches, and boom, the government has a new role. Yippee.
How much of our tax dollars went into that worthless war over the last decade? For once, let’s spend some of that on something that actually shoots medicine than fucking mortar rounds.
Jesus Christ, this way of thinking is abysmal, and you have the nerve to call yourself Christian?
It is possible to hold values, many similar to those held by religious organizations, and be secular. God doesn’t need to enter the picture for humans to value human life.
Well, one could argue with the “giving it out” part since it would be paid for. Okay. So I’m going to assume you’re okay on secular government spending on defense and enforcement of criminal laws. Anything else or does that end it? What about roads/bridges/tunnels? Was the Eisenhower Interstate System a proper role of secular government? What about Port Everglades?
No, it’s because you don’t care enough about other people to prevent them from dying from lack of access to healthcare if doing something about it costs you money; you’ve said so. The only difference is that last time you tried to cower behind your god’s will (although it was you, not this imaginary god of yours, arguing against universal health care) and now you’re cowering behind “government’s proper role”.
The other first world democracies would disagree with your opinion on this.
You forgot public education and social security. Not that any of us use that shit.
Yes. Or “wiser,” anyway.
Here’s what I think would be wise. I picture it as a combination of Walmart and the USPS.
Walmart’s prices are amazingly low – because, of course, they are the 800 pound gorilla of retail. They can demand, and get, low prices on Vlasick pickles because they buy a kajillion bottles of pickles every month.
Of course, they don’t lose money on the deal.
It would be unfair for the government to go into “competition” with Walmart, because they could offer pickles for even less money, since they don’t care about making a profit.
But consider the USPS. They are a quasi-governmental organization, but they cannot operate at a loss (theoretically, anyway). They have to deliver mail, but they also have to charge enough to meet their actual expenses.
That’s the right model for governmental involvement in health care, I think. The government shouldn’t mandate anything. But they should enter into the arena as a health insurer, with a quasi-governmental identity that cannot take a loss (after the inevitable losses associated with start-up, anyway). If they want to cover low income or pre-existing conditions, they can. They will presumably drive prices down because they will be the largest trader on the block.
But they cannot operate at a loss over the long term, and they can’t mandate that people buy from them or anyone else.
Yes, I do. Because I don’t agree that Christian principles should form the basis of secular policy. Do you think they should?
Now, as to the response that the People selected this role for the government – yes, I agree they did. I’m not personally in favor of it, for the reasons previously mentioned, but it’s absolutely a valid exercise of government power and (for the moment) the solution approved by the elected representatives of the people. So it’s perfectly legitimate.
Absolutely not. But humanitarian ones, absofuckinglutely.
The latter remark about sheep/goats was simply a stab at your conflicting principles on national goodwill, your fellow Americans and prudence (and, frankly, common sense), and those principles you claim to ascribe to, because your soul depends on it, under whatever some dude in a robe said, that keeps getting preached to you over and over and over again. If you’re not going to apply that shit, why bother calling yourself Christian or even bring it up – ever?*
Awesome. America kinda still works sometimes. Bully for us.
*not that you did here, but obviously you mentioned it somewhere, and such beliefs are relevant to this thread.
In strict constitutional terms, I suppose he’d support punishing “Offenses against the Law of Nations” and “To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union”.
Except we’re holding you to a standard you set yourself, namely, whether you are a follower of Christ. Presumably following Christ ought to be more important than following the secular nature of a nation, should there be a conflict between the two.
Why hold this branch of government to a different standard to others? Government covers externalities other industries are unwilling to deal with. The health industry doesn’t want to deal with chronic illnesses. Chomsky points out that nationalising steel results in a loss on the books, because they’re effectively subsidising every industry reliant on steel.
:dubious: on Bricker’s WalMart analogy:
Not everyone needs pickles.
You can’t be denied healthcare, but you can be denied pickles.
One day, someone is going to need care. And they will get care. Count on it. So, when that bill comes, I think it’s pretty rare that Jesus ascends from the heavens and pays the tab. Or some charity or philanthropist who wants to make sure no one’s getting rapped by HMOs after a heart attack, and opens their bottomless wallet of goodwill.
Insurance on something that, overall, is inevitable, is a fucking scam, and the state of health insurance in this country is a tragic joke.
Unless you work at Mega-Corporation X, you can’t get into a big enough pool of people to cover half the shit most people deal with medically. You end up paying $1,200 a month on a shit policy that covers, at the most 80% of major procedures, no Rx plan, and you’re SOL on mental, dental, and pre-existing chronic. So, when I have a kidney stone, and I have to still pay 20% on a $3000 CT scan, after paying out 14k a year, it’s clear something’s fucked up here.
We went a year without health insurance, living in constant fear, but saved a bundle. Had I had an emergency, I had two choices:
- Call an ambulance and go to an ER to get treated, but then accrue a bill the size of 2 mortgages, that I can never even hope to re-pay, destroy my credit, living hand to mouth for the rest of my now shortened life (because either I couldn’t afford checkups, or didn’t want to risk the death-blow of a “pre-existing condition”), ultimately passing that debt onto happy-go-lucky customers paying ever increasing insurance premiums.
OR
- die.
So, yeh, not quite equivalent to fucking pickles. I’d rather just be done with this bullshit, and join the risk pool of 300M+ Americans and be taxed at an overall lower rate than some faceless entity just pushing a bottomline on the backs of the sick and injured.
Pickles. Christ.
What about vaccinations in the face of an epidemic? Not even then?
Why does “secular” make any difference here?
What is it about health insurance that customers need to be in groups before the insurers will cover them? I thought the whole point of insurance was that enough individuals buy policies that we become a group on which the insurance company can make statistical predictions and (if their predictions are good enough) make a profit. I don’t need to get 1,000 other people to go in with me in order to get car insurance.
Put another way, if a health insurance company is willing to sell policies on all the employees at GE for X amount per head, and turn a profit, why won’t they cover me for the same amount even though I don’t work there?
Because, you see, big corporations are more predictable in pool size and employee base. They usually have enormous pockets, and use terms like “revenue,” profits and loss," “Annual Reports,” and can entice employees with things called “benefits” to be sure citizens are far more attracted to working for MegaCorp X, than on their own, or some small operation with a crew of a few people. MegaInsurance X has a huge Excel spreadsheet somewhere for MegaCorp X’s Employees, their health risks, the projected draw on cares/costs, etc.
But lil’ ol’ me? I’m just a dood working from his livingroom. There’s no spreadsheet on doods in livingrooms.
Times that by how many more folks are able to work from home, via internet/computer these days, and you can see the problem will only get bigger and bigger, and premiums will balloon until only the very rich can afford it, or you’re forced to work for MegaCorp X.
And unlike car insurance, there’s rarely a repair or a total that exceeds 50k. There’s no pre-existing conditions for cars, not everyone has one, needs one, or even tries to keep it running as it ages over the course of 80 years. Car Ins. really only covers collision repair and no-fault accidents, but it’s up to you to foot the bill for maintenance and getting a break job. Cars depreciate and are eventually recycled.
Humans, not so much.
Yeh, that should be brake job.
Well, if the insurance company needs information on guys working in their living rooms, they should compile it. It’s what they do with other forms of insurance.
Why would they need that, though? Are your health needs inherently different from an employee of MegaCorp just because you don’t happen to work for them?
That’s getting into a rather interesting argument. Other forms of insurance exist to protect against unforeseen events. Health insurance seems to cover routine checkups at a higher rate than emergencies. I’m not sure why that is, either (although I’m sure the insurer doesn’t want people neglecting small issues until they become big enough to be emergencies).
There probably is. I don’t even pretend to know how insurance companies process this sort of thing, and I’m sure someone’s done all sorts of math yoga to come up with all sorts of policies for individuals (or in my case, a family of four), but usually the premiums are asinine for coverage that makes some sort of sense, or is really just a 1:1 (if not 0.5:1) of paying your premium on a 70/30% at $1000/mo. or just paying out of pocket for the smaller shit as it arises.
Really, insurance costs are RIDONKULOUS. Check em out.