Is acknowledgement of historical inequality such a bad thing? And while not nearly as bad as Stoid makes out, we still live in unequal times. The world still has plenty of Rigamarole’s.
No-one is arguing that past generations did not, in some overall or average sense, benefit from racism and sexism (if they were the right race or sex, of course). However, overall and average does not necessarily translate into direct and compelling to particular individuals, who did not necessarily personally receive any advantages, or feel any identity with the “average” they are grouped with.
Take my immediate family. My father’s father grew up on a farm in New Brunswick, mucking out cows for a living. How exactly did he benefit from being White and Male?
My mother’s family, OTOH, fled Romania during WW1, came with the clothes on their backs - and were despised as filthy east european Jews. They did sweated labour as factory workers in the garment industry, both sexes. Not getting much male white priviledge there.
My wife’s family - well, on her mom’s side they were fortunate enough to survive Stalin’s Ukranian famine; during WW2, her grandfather on mother’s side dissapeared on literaly the first day of the war (he was in the Soviet army, in occupied Poland). They survived the war by a miracle and were moved by Stalin to what used to be a heavily German part of Poland (to replace the Germans who had been “ethnically cleansed”), only to escape to the West without a dime in the '50s, from whence they moved to Canada.
On her dad’s side, they came of a long line of Ukranian farmers in Saskatchewan.
The point? That not all narratives, when looked at as individuals, conform to the stereotype of racual or sexual advantage. Thus it makes no sense - and indeed perpetuates racism and sexism - to redress the balance in terms of race and sex, as opposed to individual circumstance.
Wait, you don’t want an “apology”:
But rather, you want an “aknowledgement”.
What exactly does such a creature as an “aknowledgement” do, which is not an “apology”? Yeah, most reasonable people will aknowledge that there exists a history of sexism and racism.
I take it you don’t know any women that work for Walmart.
??
And many yet think it is history.
Being white and being male has absolute advantages in the United States. That doesn’t mean perpetrating sexism is somehow making up for it, nor does it mean that mealy-mouthed apologies do jack shit for those of us who haven’t had the advantages of both.
Basically, my point is this: Don’t apologize for sexism. Stop being sexist.
Fair enough.
(that was the best I could do Stoid)
Where abouts? My mom’s family is form St. Stephen and Oak Bay (my maternal grandfather was from St. Stephen and my maternal grandmother was from Fredericton).
I slogged through 9 pages just waiting in anticipation to bring up this point, and here at the 11th hour you and LHOD have beaten me to it.
Nevertheless, this is a problem I run into whenever confronted with the concept that men are culpable as regards the culturally-driven gender inequities in our society. The primary influences on boys in our society are mothers and teachers - almost exclusively female influences for most boys for most of their childhood. I don’t disregard the significant influence of cultural expectations on how women carry out those roles, and that they may be affected by established beliefs and feelings. (My grandmother, for instance, would refuse to be seen by a female physician.) Nevertheless, if women are excused for their behaviors and their perpetuation of the problem because that’s the way they were raised, why should men alone feel compelled to apologize and to feel guilty?
NB: I do not like inequalities of any kind, and I think that there remain issues to be rectified in our current society. I think, however, that men and women share in the responsibilities to change them.
On a tangential point as to whether men should aspire to take on and demonstrate more feminine traits, I would note that, having picked up a few of the books my wife likes to read (the ones with various versions of Fabio on the covers), when women write fiction for other women that is focused on relationships, they don’t tend to write about women lusting after some guy’s sensitivity and intuition. They don’t have female characters describing with longing some guy being in touch with the Earth, valuing the here and now while eschewing goals, or listening to their bodies as regards sleep, eating and play.
The same is somewhat true in reality as well. Plenty of sensitive, thoughtful, introspective guys can tell you how well they competed for attention from girls with guys who more prominently manifested traits more associated with masculinity.
Yes, of course these women as writers and readers and natural selectors are themselves the result of the culture they grew up in. I’m just not sure how they as members of the category of Women get a pass in being responsible or as potential agents of change.
I don’t think they do or should. I’m not a mindless victim of male hegemony.
You need to back off on this sort of personal shot–now.
[ /Moderating ]
I was really trying to be constructive, and I’m seen worse here in this thread, but OK.
But we tried so hard!
Or perhaps you’re just not aware of how victimized you really are. Mwooo haa haa haa!
Consider what, exactly? Consider that maybe I shouldn’t appreciate it anymore? Why? Is that how you decide what makes sense to you, by counting who shows up to tell you something is garbage in a Straight Dope thread? Because I have news: that is not 99% of “The People” at all, that’s a very specific self-selected group who have made it a point spend their time and energy trying to outdo each other in how much ridicule they can pack into as few words as possible. That’s about as value-free as it gets. If anything:
I learned of it through people I know, respect, love and care about deeply as some of the most incredible human beings I have ever had the privilege to have in my life, one of whom has been among my dearest loved friends since we were children and whom I consider a great teacher to me because he is a truly special human being who brings light wherever he goes. He has the most ready laugh, the most accepting and loving spirit that it’s impossible to avoid feeling alive and joyful around him. He reminds me exactly of the Dalai Lama, but he’s just a regular man leading a normal life, not a guru or anything special at all.*** H***is opinion I value enormously. If he hated it, that would have meant something.
The reaction of people in general that I have encountered has been mixed. None of it has been anything like the hostility and ugliness in this thread, but no news there. It’s been closer to my own: Great idea, sticky execution.
As for “defending” it: I haven’t been, it doesn’t need defending. Thats why I put it MPSIMS. Some mod decided to move it to GD. I don’t have any interest in debating it and never did. Thought it had value, decided to share.
Enough.
Closed.