Debate: How to, and the Rule Book

Hello GDenizens!

How do we set our standards of behavior in this forum? Specifically, what are the allowable parameters of debate tactic outside of which a Straight Doper in good standing should refrain from travelling?

That’s the question posed in a different thread, which, as those who have followed it already understand, I’ve promised not to link or refer to in this thread. The question as originally posed to me was phrased a bit differently, as it assumed a particular case or set of circumstances. I’d like to start out in a more general way, and first explore the ideal expectations for debate in this forum, after which, if any sort of consensus can be reached, we can discuss whether special case scenarios necessarily allow relaxation (or require tightening) of those expectations. It’s my belief that this discussion can be conducted without any of us exhibiting every debate tactic which will be described, and it’s my fervent hope that we can avoid all but the most straightforward of those tactics. But debate this we will. If misbehavior is detected, please expect an immediate and profound virtual wedgie to be applied (by whoever gets to it first).
Let’s start with the bare-bones procedural requirements for debating via message board. Perhaps the most effective method of determining procedure for any process is to map the conditions under which that process is conducted, list the starting and [projected or intended] end points of the process, and determine any necessary milestones or requisite functions which must be included in the process due to real world constraints (physical, legal, etc.).

What follows is my attempt to start the mapping.

Conditions and Constraints. We are communicating via internet connections on a platform owned and operated by the Chicago Reader. The platform, a message board, is separated into themed fora, each moderated by one or more administrative volunteers, authorized by the MB owner to perform such moderation. Q&A, assertion and rebuttal, argument and refutation, all take place at the convenience of the participants; there is no real-time discussion on the fora. (That, presumably, is what chat is for.) We are prohibited in the extent to which we can quote and link to sites outside the auspices of the Reader; this is to protect copyright laws and to comply with standards imposed by the Reader to keep them out of legal trouble. We have only limited control over the appearance of our posts, and as members cannot directly edit our posts once submitted. We have certain limits as to the size of individual posts, although as one who has tested those limits and not yet found them, I can’t say exactly what those limits are.

Starting, Finishing and Milestones. The beginning of a debate is usually the posting of a singular perspective regarding a phenomenon, condition, philosophy or theory. The first essential milestone of any debate must be the declaration of a position regarding the phenomenon, condition, etc. Dissenting and confirming opinions are solicited and/or returned, or the thread dies the ignoble death of all ignored OP’s and slides off the bottom of the page over time. Arguments are submitted, either to support or attack specific positions. In the end, the discussion either resolves certain issues through consensus, clarifies the positions of various participants, or merely peters out through frustration or inattention of the combatants. The intended end, on this particular MB, is some eradication of ignorance.

Other Considerations: On this MB, don’t be a jerk.
Now, here’s where I’d like to give the floor to whoever wants to add to the map, question the validity of any of the listed conditions, constraints or milestones, or offer up any inferences we can make regarding the procedural necessities of the debate process based on this map.

I’m going to give it at least a few hours (mainly because I have some personal business -like supper and childcare- to attend). Have fun, kids.

  1. The person stating the proposition has the duty to defend it. It is not enough, nor is it appropriate, to shift the burden of proof to the person or persons who oppose you. If it is your thesis, then you have the obligation to support it, and to prove it if it is amenable to proof.

  2. Debates that devolve to duelling opinions belong in IMHO, because at the end of the day that’s all they are. If you can’t provide some sort of basis for your opinion, other than it came to you in a burst of brilliance, then it’s only your opinion. Unverifiable opinion should be clearly stated as such, and not as verifiable statements of fact. “X is unconstitutional” is an opinion – not a fact – unless the prevailing Supreme Court opinions agree with you.

  3. Posts should be read and digested before responding, so that (a) the person responding to it is responding to what was actually said and not what he or she wishes was said; (b) hijacks to Cuba/ rampages down tangents are kept to a minimum; and © time is not wasted responding to points already conceded, or returning to points already moved on from.

  4. Insults and ad hominem attacks should be kept to an absolute minimum. If you can’t be civil, take it to the Pit.

  5. People wading in to post “I haven’t read the whole thread, but . . .” should be beaten about the head and body.

I would add, BTW, that I am not in favor of setting down any rules regarding standards of behavir for how debate is handled here. I don’t think any of us has the authority to do so anyway, but I also don’t think it’s a good idea. If someone is debating in a way that I think is unfair or unreasonable, I will tell them so, and why, in the context of that debate. I think “don’t be a jerk” is all the roadmap that’s needed in any forum.

I have a question.

Who does the detecting, judging, etc. regarding misbehavior?

How do we define it for purposes of this debate?

Are there standards and criteria for this detection, and are they uniform?

Many actions may be subject to interpretation, and taken more than one way. One way might seem innocuous, the other might seem a gross, despicable, and dishonest rhetorical trick. How do you determine which it is, and who gets to do that determination?

Saying you will react strongly to detected misbehavior is a worthy goal. How do you propose to make it work in practice?

How about: if it is your thread, you have to state your platform/viewpoint/opinion on the question? Sort of along the lines of Jodi’s #1, but clarifies a part of it.

I would differ in slight measure from Jodi: an opinion supportable under consensus, or at least popular, methodology deserves Great Debate status.

To use Jodi’s example: on a subject not yet brought before SCOTUS, I assert that the law in question is unconstitutional. If unsupported opinion, my post is strafed by rampaging jurisconsults. But if I make the case that the issue is on all fours with Mr. Brennan’s opinion for the Court in U.S. v. FriendofGod (994 USR 2714), and explain my logic according to principles of constitutional law, then we have a debate in which those who give two snorts about C-Law can engage, with common ground on which to base their opinions.

Also, religious opinions can be debated, though there clearly is no consensus, but again common ground needs to be established. (This was my main problem with Lolo: he said nothing others have not said better before, but refused to produce any ground for his assertions whatsoever. I felt strongly tempted to petition Tuba and Lynn to allow his threads in IMHO, because that’s all they were.)

I would observe that a skeptical empiricism is the basis for data, as opposed to authority, to be presented in support of a thesis. The question of whether this is the sole appropriate methodology for data analysis is one worth discussing, but it does seem to be one on which all can agree.

Scylla, as regards misbehavior, we leave determining this to the godlike discerning abilities of the Moderator staff.

I would most heartily concur, but unlesss my mark (always a distinct possibility,) that is not what is being suggested in the OP. “Whoever gets to it first,” doesn’t seem to imply a moderator.

Hopefully a clarification will clear this up.

Assuming the misbehavior is the sort that it is up to the mods to discern. I feel fairly confident that ** xeno ** was referring to forms of misbehavior more subtle than verbally abusing one’s opponent. Indeed, isn’t this thread all about finding a consensual definition of what sort of behavior is acceptable in a GD setting?

Why not simply adopt the same standards one would use in a face-to-face debate. Ask yourself before posting: Would I say this to their face, either in the context of the debate or on a personal level ?

We all understand those standards of real-world integrity (in that sense we all went to the same school and we do understand those rules), why not employ those rather than some contrived message board consensus ?

If someone chooses to ignore that standard, remind them. If they don’t respond, ignore them.

Hardly a rule, but as a practice there should be no shame in conceding defeat.

I have conceded defeat on gun debates before, and seem likely to concede defeat on the current whaling debate in this forum.

It annoys me intensely when someone (I have a certain poster in mind, but I haven’t seen him for a while) skips jumps ducks and twists when he or she is in a corner, but refuses to admit that his or her OP was unsupportable or wrong.

It would be conceited, stupid and wrong for me to say that I am always right. I for one am grateful to be set right if it can be clearly shown that I have it wrong. That is the express purpose of these boards.

Something I would like (and would also like to follow more often) is to face each debate as its own topic… that is, barring perhaps only friendships, the debate should not take into account previous postings along possibly similar topics.

Each debate is a thing unto itself, IMO, and pulling up old conversations as a tactic is not, seemingly, appropriate.

I personally have changed my mind about a lot of things due to debates here, and I do not consider myself special in any way, and thus assume that many others have learned things and changed their views due to GQ or GD (and maybe even IMHO) threads.

I admit I have a hard time doing this, even if it is in my own mind to think, “Well, hell, I remember what Jodi said about this before… etc etc.” But I think all posters should try to understand the topic for what it is in itself.

[bDave**, I agree, and I have noticed that “defeat,” as it is, is not frowned upon per se, except in those cases where the same posters harp on the same topics (some race issues, for example, or me and my “the government sucks” :p). But I agree: conceded points should be considered not only a good thing to do, but a classy thing to do. :slight_smile:

I could not possibly agree more completely, excepting only that I would extend this standard to every forum, bar none.

Thanks Jodi, for your points 1 through 5; I agree with all except for 2, I think. I disagree with that one only to the extent that I think the exchange of informed opinions, even if left unresolved between principle posters, is worthy of GD. Those debates which decay into two intractable positions will quickly lose the interest of all but the main opponents in any case.

Polycarp: I agree with your comment regarding moderator action; indeed, they are the arbiters of acceptable board behavior. However, the standards I’m talking about (and Scylla mysteriously leapt right to the crux of the matter) are those of debate procedure within the context of this “ignorance fighting” MB; IOW which debate tactics can fairly be described as “fighting ignorance” and which, if any, should be avoided by Dopers because they merely score rhetorical points without shedding light on the issue at hand.

december: Yes, “belling the cat”; precisely the problem. The cat in question already wears a bell.

Stoid: You’ve apprehended the concept of this thread neatly.

Scylla: Thank you indeed for displaying the amazing prescience to leap directly to the special case this thread was intended to allow us to deal with in a consensual way (within, of course and unfortunately, the confines of this thread alone). What is allowable in a debate one has against one who “misbehaves”, and who determines that misbehavior has occured. We’ll get there.

My comment in the OP, however, was specifically aimed at those who employ the debate tactics we will consensually identify as “bad.” Since we haven’t completely set up the ideal Ignorance Fighting Playbook, it seems premature to discuss any quasi-official method of i.d.'ing worthy wedgie winners. At this time, my position is that we haven’t determined which of the commonly recognized rhetorical tricks (amphiboly, equivocation, ad baculum, ad hominem, etc.) are out of bounds. —Although there are some immediate signs of agreement regarding ad hominem attacks.

In any case, charges of misbehavior fail to stand when they can’t be supported by the accuser, and typically do stand when they violate the sensibilities of other participants, even when they are passionately defended by the accused.

London Calling: You are quite right that any consensus gained in this thread will be both contrived and limited, and doesn’t take the place of the social standards we all understand. It’s my hope though that at least a few people who follow this thread will decide that the social standards and the message board standards are not as different as they had believed, or as they might like them to be. Also, I don’t think as many people are as well-versed in debate etiquette as we would like to believe, and thus this thread may do them a service as well.

Dave Stewart: Absolute agreement regarding the express purpose of the board. That’s why I come here, also.

erislover: Again, I’m in agreement regarding concession of points (if not opinion; e.g. your “government sucks” stance), and I partially agree about taking each debate as a separate entity. However, I believe we can reasonably enter into debate with certain expectations of consistency from a poster who’s general positions we are familiar with through previous contact. That is to say, if we have gone over similar ground, it should be acceptable to refer to relevant points raised from previous explorations of the topic.

To sum up my position so far:[ul][]The exchange of informed opinions (i.e. those based on multiple sources of information and reasonably supported premises) constitutes valid debate. Debates which devolve into two immovable stances should be allowed to grind to a stop under their own inertia.[]The Moderators are the sole arbiters of jerkiness. However, we soldiers in the War on Ignorance™ must determine which weapons in that conflict are most effective and which practices are ethically supportable.[]This thread is intended to establish those weapons and practices so that it can serve as a reference as needed.[]Be careful with charges of misconduct; particularly if you’re guilty of any hypocritical approach.[]The wide social standards we’re all familiar with may indeed be the right template for message board standards of debate.[]Only relevant points (not behavior) raised in past debates should be brought forward into a present debate.[/ul]

You’re welcome. And, if I read correctly, you’d prefer I wait for you to finish the menu, before I leap in and try to run off with the roast. Very well, I’ll just nibble on a cracker or something.

::Just a nibble::

Agreed as to the first part. Being correct or incorrect is besides the point. If you can’t back it up you have no business making an accusation.

The second part I I’m not so sure about. For example, say there’s a pro-Republican thread going on. Participating are 8 Republicans and 1 Democrat. Both are using identical debating tactics and reasoning. The 8 Republicans may indeed have their “sensitivities violated” by the 1 Democrat. The Democrat may passionately defend his usage, and do so quite well, citing that he is using the exact same criteria employed by his opponents.

Are you suggesting that under this standard the accusation still stands and is valid, or just pointing out that sometimes that’s the way the cookie crumbles and our lone brave Democrat is shit out of luck?

I’m not suggesting that subversion of fairness in favor of rampant partisanship is ever valid. (We’ve certainly seen it occur here, though.)

Do you think political sensitivities are equivalent to sensibilities regarding social conduct?

xeno:

No, but as you say it happens, and even the best intentioned and those who try to be open and fair-minded have difficulty applying their standards uniformly.

One tends to favor and cut a little more slack to supporting arguments, while at the same time more critically analyzing opposing arguments. The net effect is a double standard and political sensitivities may indeed become in practice equivalent to those of social conduct in some circumstances.

I would say “in effect” rather than “in practice”, since the practice of ideologically evaluating opposing arguments focuses on conclusions rather than on the ways in which those conclusions are asserted, as a procedural evaluation would do. (Neither, of course, speaks to the reasonableness of the conclusions.)

“in effect” is more precisely what I meant. Agreed and thanks.

I’ll stop nibbling now and wait for the meal.

If the debate is about some reasonably specific political issue in the here and now (flat tax, ANWR drilling, school prayer, whatever), I would have trouble with ‘solutions’ that involve politically inconceivable upheavals on a much greater scale than is the implied scope of the debate.

For instance, if we’re debating the effects of U.S. corporations on Third World countries, I would consider it out of line to seriously propose that the U.S. outlaw the corporation. Or, if we’re debating the placement of the Nine Commandments on public school walls, I don’t think it’s the place to argue that the proper solution is the elimination of public schools.

That isn’t to say that the rightness or wrongness of corporate ownership as we know it, or the legitimacy of public education, shouldn’t be debated. Just that, IMO, such larger debates shouldn’t be dropped, like nukes, into what are clearly intended as more limited debates.

OK, I’m with you, given a few ground rules.

“Any poster who shall, in the course of debate, introduce and/or post a dictionary definition for a word that is in common use and which meaning is widely known, shall be flayed and his/her/its skin displayed in the Pit” If this shall not be done, I will withdraw my support and allow the entire enterprise to collapse.

Clearly, an Arbiter of Debate and Rhetoric will be required, someone who’s clarity of thought and universally recognized impartiality shall qualify him for such a position. After several seconds of deep introspection and soul-searching, I have decided to permit my name to be put forth. I do this largely to preempt the unseemly beseeching and imploring that surely would rain down on me, at great cost to my accustomed modesty.

If. for whatever unforseeable reason, this should prove unnacceptable, my preferences in order would be **Stoid, Xenophon, Collounsbury, Sua Sponte, Carrot Top, Big Bird, **and Scylla.

I await your enthusiastic approval “with the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces.”