Debate the only sound, non-racist argument for immigration control I've ever read

The only way that every job can pay a living wage is if the prices of a lot of things go up, in which case you’re back where you started as far as standard of living goes.

Another way is for “every job” to mean less jobs. Wal-mart can cut half their staff and double everyone’s pay. More likely you’ll just pay double what you do now for food.

From the article…

Seems pretty clear to me.

Well, I think Lind is thinking mainly in terms of “status equality.” Like in Denmark – you can have a janitor living next door to a doctor, in a smaller house at a lower income, but equally a member of the neighborhood/community – and we used to have that here, but we don’t any more.

Cite? And I mean one from an economist, and not one from Heritage or Cato, either.

Cite?

And I mean from a reliable source, not some hack.

Edit: And by that I mean the idea that janitors and doctors used to live together in the same neighborhoods both owning houses. That strikes me as a Leave it to Beaver fantasy.

Huh?

You get upset at people criticizing wikipedia, which is famously unreliable, but you get upset at people citing the work of someone from either the Cato or Heritage?

Would you mind explaining because that strikes me as jaw-droppingly hypocritical.

Another way for it to work is for everyone to have enough money to buy things, so the economy grows. That’s what’s wrong with the US economy right now, corporations are thriving on foreign sales and parking the money overseas, and hollowing out the middle class who have long been the engine that keeps the US economy strong.

Dude, Cato and the Heritage Institute are well known right wing think tanks, or to put it more accurately, propoganda mills. Getting your data from any institution where policy trumps data is a bad idea.

I’m not a fan of either and that wasn’t my question.

I was confused why BG is such a big defender of wikipedia, which is famously unreliable, yet argues against anything from them.

Beyond that, he’s citing Michael Lind who’s also an ideologue, just an ideologue who’s beliefs he finds more palatable.

Sure, it’s possible for someone here (Canada) to live on minimum wage, so it could be possible in the USA, if they raised the minimum wage a bit and had a real universal health insurance system. “Living” is not a particularly close approximation of “middle class,” at least by modern standards. You can get by with shelter, food, and health care in a reasonably well run country while working for ten or twelve bucks an hour, but nobody is going to call it “middle class.”

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Like in Denmark – you can have a janitor living next door to a doctor, in a smaller house at a lower income, but equally a member of the neighborhood/community – and we used to have that here, but we don’t any more.
[/QUOTE]

What a fascinatingly anecdotal, vague, disconnected statement.

I’ll also point out that twelve bucks an hour is substantially about minimum wage.

You mean in Canada, right?

Wikipedia is “unreliable” but unbiased. That makes all the difference.

Besides, Wikipedia is never a source for “studies” of its own, it only provides some discussion of and links to such. “Get Your Own Damn Cites.”

Sound in propositional logic means that the argument is valid–if the premises are true the conclusion must be true–and that the premises are indeed true.

There is no non-trivial but sound argument for that conclusion.

Thank you for conceding that wikipedia is unreliable and backing down from past statements.

That said, it is certainly very biased in a number of ways and it is absurd to argue otherwise.

I suspect so.

From what I’ve heard, and Canadian dopers feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but my understand is that the cost of living in Canada is significantly higher than the US.

Not by much, I wouldn’t think. Most sources suggest about 5-10%.

Like the USA, cost of living in Canada is heavily dependent upon where you are; urban is more expensive than rural, and some cities are pricier than others.

Canada isn’t even close to places like the UK or western Europe. I found the prices there flabbergasting. I don’t know how people afford it.

So, what is Canada’s immigration policy like, compared with the U.S.’ or Mexico’s?

Wikipedia is at any rate more reliable than any blog on the Net. Its imperfections arise from open-source content, but there are mechanisms in place to correct errors and a lot of effort goes into it, and any article on which contributors persistently and strongly disagree is at any rate prominently flagged “NEUTRALITY DISPUTED,” and further talk is always invited. What it is, is a sort of constant rough fractal-iteration towards the Perfect Truth.

Wikipedia, not surprisingly, has a page on the issue. (Get Your Own Damn Cites.)

:rolleyes: That shit again?

Let’s see what a truly unbiased (save towards Reason) site like RationalWiki says:

Well, obviously, their incomes are commensurately higher. But it’s no way to attract tourists.