Debt collection & harassment

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I am having a problem and would like to hear some practical advice (rather than just personal opinions).

I’ll try to make it short. I was using Compuserve as my ISP for the main reason that I could connect from other countries when I travelled (paying a surcharge). I could travel for a month, connect once or twice a day for email and pay just a few bucks surcharge which was fine.

Last November while I was in Madrid my access was denied and I could not straighten the situation until I returned because they have lousy customer service which keeps you on hold for hours which I was not willing to do at $1 a minute.

It turns out, due to some computer glitch on their part, I was not logged out correctly so it appeared I was connected for days and weeks and the bill totalled over $4000. When it was rejected by my credit card, they shut me off.

When I saw I could not straighten things out with them, I got another ISP. The problem now is that they keep chasing me for the full amount of their bill and threatening all sorts of things. I have tried to reason with them on the phone several times and have written several letters explaining the situation and that I refuse to accept those charges.

They are adamant and say if the computer says I was logged on, then I must have been logged on and I must pay.

I am beginning to worry because it seems this is going to be turned over to a collection agency and may damage my credit.

I have notified them formally that I reject the charges and not to call me or otherwise harass me. They say fine but they’ll keep asking for the money. They act like I may pay the $4000 just to get out of the situation! Is there anything I can or should do other than sit tight and wait for the sword to fall?

If I am disputing the charges can they still put it on my credit record without getting a judgment first? What recourse do I have besides adding a lame explanation on my credit record?

Any ideas on how to deal with this aggravating matter will be appreciated.

2

Get a lawyer.

Also, demand to see an exact transcript of the times and dial-up number(s) used to log on. Go over this with a fine-toothed comb as far as where you were and when. If you are travelling as often as you claim to, you no doubt have hotel receipts, used airline tickets and what-not.

If you can show enough instances where you could NOT have been logged in (like you were in a plane at the time, or you were in the wrong country), you will put everything they say in doubt. Also, make sure they didn’t put this on your credit rating, as this could mess you up when it comes to matters of financing, as you are no doubt aware.

Good luck!

Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Four days, 4 hours, 34 minutes and 48 seconds.
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Life saved: 13 hours, 55 minutes.

3

What Satan said: Get a lawyer and document, document, document.

And spend the time to fix this. If they wreck your credit, it’ll impact things years down the road.

One additional point: when you get this resolved (I have confidence in you!), be sure to get the resolution in writing, and hang on to it for several years at least. You may find later down the road that they did leave a dent on your credit, and you’ll want some kind of proof that you’re a good guy. I went through a lame thing many years ago where a department store unfairly munched my credit. They apologized on paper, and sent me a gift certificate. 5 years later when I went to buy a house the mortgage folks were concerned about it. Fortunately I had kept the apology.

4

I hope that you kept a copy of all the letters that you sent them. Credit agencies are morons, they will put anything on your credit report, although it takes months for it to show up and it takes months to get anything taken off. I’ve never heard of a company like this putting anything on your credit history, but I guess anything is possible. You can easily take them to civil court, they won’t make a huge deal of this because to them this is a small amount of money. They probably wouldn’t even show up.

** Sigh. So many men, so few who can afford me ** Original by Wally

I’ve learned that if someone says something unkind about me, I must live so that no one will believe it.

5

To answer one of your questions, YES, they can and will put this on your credit record without anything even close to a judgement. A credit card company once latched onto me as an authorized used (not a co-applicant) on a credit card debt of several thousand dollars that the estate of the (recently deceased) actual owner and charger (no relation to me) had decided not to pay (so as to better profit from his death, but that’s another story), and a constant stream of phone calls and letters for YEARS to various credit and collection agencies had absolutely no effect. They never filed suit or took any action whatsoever against me, because they didn’t have a shred of justification or documentaion to give them so much as a leg to stand on, but EVERY single time I dealt with credit in any form, I was denied because of this supposedly bad debt (My actual record was spotless, no late pays, no defaults, no judgements, etc). Supposedly bad credit data stays on your record for seven years, and I can testify that this haunted me for at least that long.

Another time I was notified that I was being sued in small claims in regard to a dispute over fees for professsional services. My lawyer called their lawyer, letters were exchanged, and an agreement for settlement out of court was reached and paid promptly. Nevertheless, when I applied for a mortgage two years later, my loan officer came back from retrieving my credit report with a shocked look on her face and informed me that no one was going to give me a mortgage while I was in the midst of this lawsuit. No court appearance, no judgement, no debt outstanding, but it nevertheless almost prevented me from getting my house.

I don’t mean to sound grim (I’m amazed at how pissed I still am about both these incidents even today), but be deeply concerned, be very careful, and be ready to dig in for the long haul to deal with this. I earnestly hope you’re successful.

MST3K: Best lil’ puppet show on the planet.

6

Actually (and who thought I’d ever be saying this?), you may not need a lawyer, at least not initially. Get a copy of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (I’m assuming you’re in the U.S. of A.). You can find it at 15 U.S.C. sec. 1692 (that is, volume 15 of the United States Code, section 1692 of that volume). It tells you what creditors can and cannot do in terms of attempting to collect a debt – and also provides for triple damages if they screw up, so many are not willing to mess with it. I’m betting you’ll find stuff on the FDCPA on the net, though I haven’t looked myself.

And document, document, document. Send them a letter setting forth the facts as you understand them, the steps you have taken to attempt to work this out, and the reason you are disputing the validity of the debt. Then tell them to quit contacting you, by telephone OR by mail (once you’ve disputed the debt and directed them to quit contacting you, they violate the FDCPA if they continue to do so). At that point, their alternatives are to drop the matter or sue you. If they sue you, then you need a lawyer. Oh, and they certainly can put it on your credit report, so be sure to exercise your right to add a notation to the report explaining that the debt is not paid becuase you dispute it’s validity. Good luck.

Jodi

Fiat Justitia

7

Everything I know about debt collection practices I learned on the internet after doing a search in Yahoo!!! on “Bally’s sux”.

They can put it on your record. It will be there for a long time. Get a lawyer if it drags out too long. Subpoena your usage records from them too. Bring any/all documentation you can get your hands on. Why don’t you have an unlimited account? How long are they trying to say you were on the phone for? Make your employer pay for it if you were away on business at the time. Those guys are assholes.

P.S. I hope you’re not a member of Bally’s Total Fitness.

8

Thanks all for your advice. I called them and asked for the record of my connections those days. They sent a total of 125 pages by fax and it took them over two hours to print them prepare them and fax them. What a waste of time!

After looking at them summarily I can see they are just full of errors. One week between December 5 to 11 they claim a total of 21543 minutes which is more than having two computers connected permanently (at 10 cents a minute, $2175 just for that week!)

That could be explained because the system was not logging me off each time. They say it is my fault and I am responsible but I know full well I was logging off correctly. But even if I didn’t I cannot see how they can just maintain the connection for hours and hours.

Not only that but then there are days I was still in the US and there are calls from Madrid. Even the day I was on the air on my way there, there are a total of 10 hours online.

At first I thought it might be somebody was using my account but after analyzing the data I feel it is not the case. My guess is that it is just a computer that messed up.

I understand that these things happen but what I do not undertand is why the people there are such idiots.

The worst part is the aggravation. I find it hard to stay calm. I have always made a point of having good credit, I do not owe a penny and I hate this situation.

I guess I just have to sit and wait for them to do something. If they report me to the credit bureaus I assume I could then sue them for any damages I may sustain if credit is denied to me.

I will write them a letter and let you all know how things develop. Thanks again for all the advice.

9

sailor wrote

Dude! Whatever you do, don’t do that. Take the time and get this fixed now. Believe me, it’ll be harder to get them to retract something later. And suing them may be an option, but it’ll be an even bigger time drain.

10

Have you talked to you credit card company about this? They might be able to help.

Just a thought.

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

“Never assume a malicious intent when stupidity will explain just as well.”

{This space reserved for a Genuine WallyM7 Sig™}

11

DO NOT JUST WAIT AROUND!!!
Who has more patience - you, or a computer record? This thing could wait for YEARS with nothing happening, then BOOM! You’re fighting something years old against new minimum-wage employees that don’t give a fuck. You think it’ll draw-out for a long time now, if you wait, it’ll take twice as long. I would even suggest dealing with it weekly- type a letter asking for a progres report on your complaint and update it as needed and send it every week or two, three, whatever. You’ll eventually get someone to work it out, and if not, a Judge is gonna side with you if you walk in with tons of documents showing that you were trying to deal with the problem. If you are lazy, a Judge will ask you “Why didn’t you do anything?”

And for afterwards, if your credit gets screwed, try this: The flunkies who work in credit reporting agencies are not exactly, well, dedicated. There are reporting laws that they have to follow, depending on the State. Once something is reported on your credit, you have a right to contest it, in writing, and it is up to the credit company to research it. They also have to reply after a set amount of time…so play off of their laziness or lack of dedication to a good work ethic- find out how long they have to answer your request- then add a day or two to that and send a letter refuting the bad report, over and over and over again. They HAVE to research it every time you send a letter…after awhile, they are going to get SICK of you and do whatever it takes to get you to stop writing- including dropping that item from your report. Only bad thing- there are like 4 main credit agencies out there, so you have to do it to all of them. But as a last-ditch effort after you have lost a battle, you can still win the war.

12

Esprix, the credit card is not in the loop any more. It’s me against CompuServe.

I have sent them a letter stating my position and I do not think I can do any more. I mean, they say I owe them and I say I don’t. That’s it. There is nothing more to discuss with them. (Except I guess I could try to write the CEO or something…)

As long as they do not do anything (like report me to the credit bureaus) there is nothing I can do. I cannot call the credit bureau and tell them to post a note in my report saying “if Compuserve should post anything here , it is untrue and I dispute it”, I have to wait for them to act first.

13

Since it was refused, I don’t know if they can. However, if you cannot work it out with the ISP, I would start by calling the BBB in the town in which they are based. Most big corps have a membership, and having things like that on their record can mess them up badly, so they tend to pay attention to the BBB. Also, try calling the credit agencies (there are three at least) and send them some documentation ahead of time. Tell them about this. Communication and education are the best weapons against corps. Tell everyone - the credit agencies, the collection agency (they will accept a letter of dispute, in most cases, as they don’t want to be harassing people), and GET A LAWYER.

-Elthia
I’m just full of advice today.

14

Elthia, thanks for your observations. As I said, the credit card is out of the loop, they have nothing to do with this. I agree about communication and good manners but I had to vent some steam and I put a page about this up on my web site calling them names. I’ll try to remain calm when I communicate with them though and I will probably tone down that page if things improve.

After closer analysis of the sessions I have noted:

A- The calls last for hours and overlap. What on earth would I be doing on the Net with a computer that cannot use a browser? Since the calls overlap, sometimes three and four sessions at a time, it is obviously impossible. CompuServe says I just did not log out correctly but to that I have to say (1) after a certain period of inactivity the connection should log you off so how come a connection can last 6 or 8 hours without being logged off? In any case, (2) I am knowledgeable about using computers and I have used this software for years and I know I was logging out correctly so I reject that explanation completely.

B- Now that I look at the log more closely I see some sessions were handled directly by CompuServe and some by Equant-Euronet. Every one by CompuServe is correct and lasts no more than 1 or 2 minutes. It is the ones by Equant-Euronet that are all messed up. I was logging out correctly.

C- There are days when I was in Washington DC and there are sessions logged both from DC and from Madrid. Needless to say the ones from Madrid are not bad logoffs, they are just nonexistent. I am absolutely certain it was not someone using my account. Rather it looks like computer error or someone deliberately planting false sessions, in any case by Equant-Euronet.

D- There are even sessions totaling 10 hours the day and hours I was flying from Washington to Madrid and I still have the air ticket to prove it. What more proof can I offer?

E- Shouldn’t CompuServe have some kind of detection like credit cards and calling cards do to alert for suspicious activity? There are a total of 21543 minutes in just one week ($2175) which means running more than two computers simultaneously 24/7.
I am still thinking the people at CompuServe customer service are total jerks but there has to be someone higher up who has some common sense. How can I find out who to talk to and how do I approach them?

Regarding the credit bureaus I do not think I will send them anything for now. Better wait a while. Also I think it is way too early to get a lawyer. If I get a lawyer then I know the one who will come out ahead is the lawyer.

Regarding the BBB, I guess it would be a good idea but I do not know where to start as I have never done this. CompuServe is based in Columbus, Ohio. How can I find out and how should I approach them? Any orientation would be welcome.

Now a totally unrelated sidenote: I just finished reading The Code Book by Simon Singh and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It is a history of encryption through the ages. Very interesting and entertaining. I recommend it.

15

Oh, oh, take that site down now - or else fix it so it doesn’t call them anything nasty. See, if you present the facts as they are, without any names, and have the backup documentation, then it’s fine. It’s free speech. But calling them names or saying things you can’t back up could be problematic, especially if they have lawyers (and any good corp has many of those).

Ok. Do you have to pay to call customer support anywhere, or is it free from home? If it’s free, I would find a time when I had hours to spare (literally - when I had trouble with Bell Atlantic, I was on the phone for six and eight hours sometimes). Call them up and ask to speak to a supervisor. They will try to ‘help’ you - simply explain to them that you have a VERY large and highly incorrect bill, and you want to speak to a supervisor because noone else has been able to help. They may want to look up the account, etc. Try to be helpful. _Show _ them that they can’t help. If you can’t do it that way, I’d try calling other extensions. Yes, I’m serious. Try to reach department heads, higher-ups, in every department you can find. Look them up in corp listings, anything. Frequently, if you are speaking to a supervisor or manager in one department, they will be more than willing to give you a direct line to the one in the department you need to speak with (billing would be best). If only so they don’t have to deal with something they can’t change.

Of course. But start looking, just in case. You don’t need to hire one, but if they get nasty, you want to know who to call. Court proceedings can move pretty quickly if one side is unprepared. Never be unprepared if you can help it.

I wouldn’t go to the BBB until your other options have been exhausted. However, if you do need to, try this:

  1. Call 411. Get the area code for Columbus OH (or look it up on Bigbook, or some other way).

  2. Call (area code here)-555-1212. This is the long-distance directory. As for the Columbus Better Business Bureau. While you’re at it, try to find one for the FCC office there too (if there is one), as I’m not sure whether this falls into their jurisdiction (anyone else know that one?).

  3. Boom. Find out whether they’re members - you can find out there whether they have any pending complaints, whether they are reputable, how long they’ve been members, and you can find out how to file official complaints. But again, I’d wait until nothing else worked before trying this.

Oooh. Very cool.

-Elthia
**
[/QUOTE]

16

Oh, and one other thing - has it been passed to a collection agency? If so, write that letter of dispute. Let the collection agency KNOW what you have, and include documentation (photocopies of the transcripts, etc).

Collection agencies won’t report it to your credit record if you have disputed it, they will try to get it worked out (and they will let the ‘client’ know that you have disputed the claim, also).

-Elthia

17

>>Collection agencies won’t report it to your credit record if you have disputed it

Elthia, that is very interesting! They have not sent it to a collection agency yet but they said it will go in a few weeks. That is a good idea, to wait for that because I think the collection agency will be more reasonable.

At Compuserve it is actually the supervisor I talked to already. I think I’ll just wait to talk to the collection agency.

I am always amazed how many morons there are in the world. I went to a lawyers forum and put a post explaining the case and I got a response from some lawyer which shows total lack of common sense and understanding. She just went into a tirade about “why would I want to convince them that I am in the right?” (huh???!!) and giving me some really stupid advice. Much more important than knowing a lot about law is having some basic common sense and some people just lack it. (This reminds me I also know this guy here in DC who is a lawyer and I wouldn’t trust him with anything. He just has no common sense and talks about everything he doesn’t know shit about).

I have found better advice and observations here than from that lawyer. I think the great resource here is common sense more than specific knowledge.

Anyway, (getting back to this matter) I think I will wait for this to go to collection and try to sort it out with the collection agency.

Thanks again for your input

18

sailor
Before this goes to collections, I would try one more letter, sent with a photo copy of the particular disputed charges in deep, vivid, gory, mind-crushing detail. “This charge can’t be correct because I was in the US and the call is from Madrid, I was on a plane when this call was supposedly placed…etc.”
Make absolutely, positively sure your ass is covered from all possible angles. Make absolutely, positively sure that you have a photocopy of the letter. Hell, save it in your word processing program, under two different filenames, then if it does go to a collection agency, you can simply do an edit of the letter to send to them, rather than compose a whole new letter.

Also, get a copy of your credit report from all three of the major credit bureaus. Do it again in a few months. It may cost you eight buck for each of them, but that beats the hell out of over four thousand dollars. If this item is on the reports, you can dispute it with the credit bureaus.

Also, if they try to sue you for the four grand, you will need to have documentation that you disputed the charges in writing.

Also, if they mess up your credit rating, you can sue them, provided you have the proper documentation.

A couple of posters have already said it…
document, document, document.

But don’t just sit and wait for them to turn it over to collections.

Good luck

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side.” — Han Solo

19

It seems the next logical step would be to file a civil lawsuit against them for the $4K and then some. Explain to them that since they have ignored your proof, the only way you can pay them is if you first sue them for the disputed amount. My feeling is that they would drop their claim within hours of being served the lawsuit. It certainly would get someones attention at the front office.

20

I’ve been successful with sending a letter to the corporate offices, preferably to the president, by name. Some of these guys have staff that sit around and deal with just this kind of stuff. Be sure to mention the name of the supervisor you’ve been dealing with, and tell tham that you are totally dissatisfied with the “customer service” you are getting. For some reason this just jerks those big guys chains. And if you’re lucky, it will hit this guys desk when he’s having a bad day and is looking for a reason to ream an employee. Good luck!!

It IS taking longer than I thought!