Deception Gets You Laid - How Bad Is This?

Ahh, there’s the rub …

Lady, how do you know that he lied to you about loving Baldur’s Gate? You know he didn’t call, you can safely assume from his lack of calling that he wasn’t falling for you (though maybe his feelings were too intense and he got scared :D), but you don’t know jack about whether he actually liked Baldur’s Gate - unless you brought your laptop with you to the bar.

So, what is the lie that harmed you – the promise to call.

Completely different issue. I don’t think anyone here has condoned deception in a relationship.

‘feeling of intimacy’ is the key. If you boink somebody the day you met them, there is no real intimacy. There is only the ‘feeling of intimacy.’ And feelings are real, even if the way you came to feel them was false.

Flippantly? Of course, flippantly - cause this ain’t a big deal. This is a common life experience. I’ve been a victim of both the Promise of Unending Love and the False Resume, as well as the perpetrator of the False Resume.*

And I seem to have survived.

Sua

*Well, actually not. It turns out chicks don’t want to sleep with the captain of the Czech national hockey team. :smiley:

Justhink: you mentioned, earlier, a 70-30 split – 30% of the men are getting most of the women, and the remaining 70% are ignored by the heartless, immature females. Was that it?

While I’ve certainly been through dry spells, and had my heart broken, and had moments of the feeling best summarized by: “Women: can’t live with 'em, can’t shoot 'em…” I would say it’s a relatively small chunk of my life spent wallowing in that mindset.

I’d further suggest that my experience is more typical than yours. In other words, it’s not most men, but a vanishingly small percentage of them, that are convinced females are less cognitive, that are constantly denied, that are 30 or 40 year old virgins. Indeed, this is certainly not a mere guess - undoubtedly there are studies that show the mean and median distribution for age of male loss of virginity in the United States, and I’m willing to bet, admittedly without research, that the number of thirty year old virgins is statistically… tiny.

I think you’re describing a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of situation, in which the contempt for the female of the species because of her unwillingness to bed the male in question leads only to further isolation from those females.

I am firmly convinced that there are qualitive and quantitative differences between the sexes - but nowhere near the gulf that Justhink envisions.

Turning to general commentary:

The consensus seems to be that people who hop into bed immediately are not entitled to feel violated if the object of their affection is not as he or she seemed.

What about a longer term thing? Someone mentioned the guy that buys a pager to sustain his deception about being a doctor; I mentioned driving a rented Jag on dates to sustain the illusion of wealth.

Is there a point at which occupation, wealth, opinions about life… whatever … is there a point at which any of those are misrepresented to create or sustain a relationship that it crosses the line from merely poor ethics to something more criminal?

  • Rick

**

Yeah buddy, I took a philosophy class once too. I’m still not having sex with you. It’s not just because I don’t like you, although that would be ample reason in and of itself. But your weirdo theories on human behavior don’t leave any room for homosexuals and bisexuals, do they?

**

People cannot address your arguments because they are unintelligable. I’m afraid you’re going to keep being frustrated there.

**

There isn’t a psychiatrist on earth who would expect you to come into his or her office already knowing in detail what all your psychiatric problems are. “Doctor, people I talk to sometimes say they think I’m crazy” would be a perfectly adequate beginning.

**

So much for the value of honesty.

**

And so much for women being the only ones who make unsupported judgements!

I’m obviously willing to waste my time since I’m doing it right now, but I have my limits. I’m not going to Pit you, first because I’m not in the habit of Pitting people, and second because it would do no good. It is my personal and decidely un-expert opinion that you are probably suffering from schizophrenia and unable to respond to reason in a normal way. But even if I am wrong on that point, which is entirely possible, it is clear enough that you have great difficulty processing the views of others and presenting your own in a coherent way, at least in a written format. For crying out loud, you can’t even use the bloody quote feature.

If you won’t seek counselling you could at least spend some time applying your vast, superior intellect to a little writing practice. The goal you should shoot for is being able to respond to a post with a single concise post of your own, using proper formatting, with each point of your response in order. There should be none of this lengthy rambling and repetition, rearranging of quotes, or multiple follow-ups to your own post. If you don’t want people to think you’re crazy, stop writing like a crazy person.

Well, I tried to convince myself not to return to this thread, but like a moth to a flame… Plus, where else does one get to traverse the meandering river that is Justthinks argument? (Not an insult, I do enjoy reading his comments though I do not agree with them).

Many people here have agreed that deceiving another on a first date for sex is not rape. I agree, it is not. However, many are also focusing on two things: 1) it being a one night stand 2) a person engaging in a one night stand deserves what they get, such as being deceived or being used.

  1. It being a one night stand.
    Not all deception between partners involves a one-night stand. On this very board we’ve heard of deceptions that are revealed to a partner after a months acquaintance (the married man in the ‘open’ relationship). A friend of mine learned that her partner was not at all the age he claimed…it kept climbing up a few years each time they discussed it. What of a woman who deceives her partner into believing she is still taking birth control, so he enters into the arrangement believing sex will be okay and safe with his long term girlfriend? These all involve longer relationships in which deception is used to keep the other partner sexually interested.
  2. A person engaging in a one night stand deserves what they get, such as being deceived or being used.
    From some of the comments I’ve read, one-night-stands are frowned upon. That is fine, however casual sex (imho) does not have to inherently be a bad thing. If both parties are aware of the consequences, and have communicated that ‘this is all it’s gonna be’, there should be no problem. However, if a person engages in purposeful deception, when does it cross that line (even in the context of a one-night stand)? We all agree that people use make-up, dress much more nicely, maybe even borrow a friends car (and by the way, bras are for support, not just to enhance our cleavage, or I know I would be going without a lot more often.) This is all (imho) self-aggrandizing deception that can be expected when people do not know each other well, and is at such a level that it won’t cause that much pain if the other party if finds out. More likely, a padded bra or jock area can lead to the humor of the evening. :wink: The critical issue for me is what pain the deception will cause the other person.

However, what of a man (or woman, Blowero – and hopefully your heavy wallet would slow you down, thus allowing my triumphant paintball win) :wink: who is married, who purposely deceives a sexual partner on this score? This can cause a great deal of pain to his sexual partner.

Is this deception okay, within the normal ‘it’s a one night stand, you get what you deserve’ mentality?

If so, why is this okay BECAUSE it’s a one-night stand? Though they have only known each other for one night, why do they not deserve at least some semblance of honesty and honor towards each other?

I consider deception of this magnitude to be a violation (and I do not use violation to mean ‘rape’), a violation of the basic laws of human interaction.

“Seduction”. It applies if the woman is above the AoC (14) but still under 18. (I suppose adults are expected to know better) 2-5 years and $5K fine.

“”"""""“Both realities can be judged as belittling the other, equally. You’re arguing that this is not so, only hetero-sexually raped men can be bellittled and have their experience negated by those who cannot comprehend hetero-sexual rape because their experience is a complete lack of hetero-sexual validation in regards to the giving of sex for validation of ones existence. “””""""

I would rather say “as the axiom is cleaved by each other” similarly to the cloture of hetero-sexual intercourse performed by hetero-sexual men on each other but n-t in between. Your idiogrammatic 30 percent solution is 15 percent to high as the actual number is 15 percent that being a cleaving of your original axiom and the diagram is clear; notwithstanding above and below the biographical impetus of men having sex with women and women having sex with men of impratur both praetorical and allegorical; The ne-plus-ultra avatar of winner-take-all apogee of poontang’s discontent is doubtfully but tractfully yours truly; not to say that the 85 percenters (of which are you) do not get woman, but that they do not get women and the difference there is the same difference between the diffidence of marriage and the daffy dance of italian gigolos, who have sex with maney virgins aged 14-16 who are at their economically enhanced peak and pay off accordingly … I know this accordingly because my many variegated fortunes I’ve paid for from cookie factories; whom produce the same tell me so and so I listen to them and not the black lab next door and so is not material belittlement of idiomatic axioms towards textual proof of psychosexual hetero man-rape. I hope that clarifies … :wink:

I think we are focusing on one-night stands for two reasons. First, it was the question raised by the OP. It’s perfectly proper to limit oneself to responding to the OP.
Second, I don’t think there is much of a debate about deception in a long-term relationship. I don’t think anyone (well, anyone coherent) will argue that deceiving your partner about your job, marital status, etc. is acceptable.

Because, if it is truly a one-night stand, the deceived party will never know he/she has been deceived. As I said before, the deceived party will also never know if the boinkee had told the truth, either. It’s a wash.
I’m by no means opposed to one-night stands, but they are about one thing - sex. They are not about earning potential, animal rights, or anything else. Unless there is evidence that lawyers make better lovers, pretending to be a lawyer doesn’t affect the sex. So there is no harm.

As for your hypothetical, if a married man engages in a one-night stand, absolutely it is improper. But I would suggest that the impropriety is in cheating on the wife.

Sua

OK now I am imagining Ms Melons and Mr BigSword meeting in a bar, going back for “coffee”, and revealing themsleves to one another as Ms Cottonwool-Pad Gnat-Bites and Mr Sock-Stuff Maggot.

Have any of your guys seriously “padded the package” in the hope of appearing more attractive?

No, we just make sure a couple of 20’s are on the outside of our roll of 1’s. :smiley:

“no harm, no foul”

Hmm… being a dentist sounds like a wonderful job now.
You may want to reconsider your stance?
“Does anyone have a clue what the response means?”

I do! I do! persistent hand raising

This is in reference to rapes which occur in surgical settings; a host of which do actually escape notice. The last line I spilled into before sleeping was that this ‘stance’ opens up some very extra-ordinary ‘rules’ in regards to deception and getting laid.

“What they don’t know can’t/won’t hurt them”
which also translates:
“What they don’t know can’t/won’t hurt me”

on this issue at least

-Justhink

I think there’s a nuance that’s being missed in the backing and forthing about one night stands being just about sex.

Even given that as an axiom, one night stands are not necessarily about indiscriminate sex. Leaving aside the things that are legitimate long-term concerns in a casual sex situation – fertility and disease status – some people do have personal preferences about who they are willing to take to bed, and someone who falsely presents is trying to get around those standards.

If someone isn’t willing to go to bed with someone who is willing to believe about the number and consent status of their other partners, someone who lies about said status is trying to pass themself off as a member of an acceptable group. And while I can’t personally think of other objections that I can think of as plausible, I see no reason to believe that human sex-partner selection criteria are limited to the plausible.

The thing with physical presentation is that it rules out people even as it attracts others – whether it’s padding or shaping, shoes, clothing, cosmetics, whatever. While I’m willing to believe that there are people for whom having sex with someone with herpes is a turn-on, say, I don’t believe that they are as statistically significant as a group as the people who don’t go for big breasts or penises or who aren’t particularly attracted to blondes.

I suppose part of my process here (apologies for chain posting <spam>) is that I take a look at some of these resolutions offered as axioms.

“Hmm… ok, what can I do with that ‘axiom’ to achieve the result?”
By pointing out corruptions, I’m consistently trying to close the gap between ‘rape’ and ‘deception to get laid’ - that I believe are one and the same. If the ‘consensus’ agrees with the strong tie (which they don’t - for obvious selfish reasons chuckle); then I can either make the case for absolute non-deception or that sex can only be veiwed in light of rape.

-Justhink

Utterly silly thought problem:

Suppose that the identical twins in the above problem marry another set of identical twins – not unheard of. Suppose, during a New Years Eve party mistakes were made. Since there was no deception was there no rape? Or were both raped situationally?

I’m sorry, but my entire ‘long term relationship’ questions stemmed from the opening poster (Bricker’s) post above (listed below for convenience). I apologize if I misunderstood, but I mistook this to mean the discussion is now also encompassing long-term relationships.

Also, reading the opening statement, he does mention one-night stands, but he also mentions other types of relationships, the twin cheating with his brothers girlfriend, a married man cheating on his wife, transgendered people who may eventually have to let their partner know. I had assumed that it did not ONLY deal with one-night stands.

I can’t agree with this. Yes, we are dealing with a hypothetical situation. In yours, they meet at a bar, never having met before, never to meet again. Yes, many people do meet this way. But many other flings, one night stands, and other hooks ups involve groups of friends getting together at parties, going to a party at an acquaintances house during college, or even random slightly known people who live near each other but have never have really spoken before. In these situations, the deceived party MAY very well discover how she has been deceived. The friend group will talk, gossip will get around campus, or she’ll see him going to his job at the Quickie Mart and realize he’s not going to call her back to take her for a ride in his fire truck. :smiley:

Yes, this is about sex, BUT if the situation has been fraudulently misrepresented to her, she is not having sex with the person she had thought she was. It is improper for him to be cheating on his wife. But, imho, it is also improper to misguide a young woman into cheating WITH him without her knowledge. You seem to feel (correct me if I’m wrong, I am hoping not to assume to much) that the wife is the only injured party in this case. Is she, like the woman who had thought she was sleeping with a single man, only ‘injured’ if she finds out?

We can end this discussion now, if you’d like, as we’re probably going to start going in circles. I just don’t think we’re going to agree on a few key issues, but I did want to clarify that I had misunderstood the discussion at hand. :slight_smile:

Ok. Time to summarize my arguement in hopes of establishing
the ‘the’ link between rape and ‘deception to get laid’.

(preamble of self-clarification in regards to why you should appreciate me =) First I tried to come at it from an absolute that I
felt existed (males cannot be hetero-sexually raped). This was
not meant to mitigate other forms of sexual relationships. I felt,
that as an absolute, this provided an excellent field to articulate
the ethics behind all interactions of this sort.
You can please stop slinging mud about my addressing this only
in the context of hetero-sexual relations! From my point of veiw, being bothered by something already existent is being mad at ‘someone’ for being born; however since the anger is in regards to existence and being born, and they are enjoying themselves and you are not; then the logical conclusion is to exit
your own existence; or to not be angry, as you do actually have the choice at any time to exit existence. How someone could be angry at truth, that which has occurred independant of yourself, boggles my mind. Transexuals have been around much longer than me. Murders have been around much longer than me.
Moral people have been around much longer than me. Logical people… well, we’ll see. Can all these sheep be sheparded, the thoughts wandering aimlessly without axioms?

The axiom I first tried does not hold. Males can be (and are) hetero-sexually raped.

I do however believe there is something VERY strong here in regards to consistency, in that males will be more consistent in regards to the entire selection and solicitation process then females. I find this line to be self-evident to the degree that my odds of walking around town door to door, business to business; “wanna fuck?” will not succeed and most likely land me in jail. This is funny and serious in that males will not put females in jail for this behavior, nor will the female need to wander very far in order to succeed – even WITHOUT any form of surgery, cosmetics or fashionable attire. (ever notice that bars and clubs have “NO SOLICITATION” signs posted? which means
that if I were to succeed at selling my product, I would in effect be violating this contractual agreement with the bar by removing profitable customers – so I can’t use these venues - as that would be false and deceptive practice). I think we can all pretty
much agree on this! This is not rocket science. (note that homosexual and transgender, transvestite individuals will probably be beat up moreso and quicker and land themselves
in jail quicker engaging in this process) A large part of gaming is the act of skirting around
this very precise observation of the imbalance and how it sets systems of hypocrisy as a requirement for sex itself. A person must be a hypocrite when calling someone or something a hypocrite (hypocrisy) in order to be sexually selected - a system reserved virtually exclusive to the female side. If an actual non-hypocritical statement is uttered,
the selection process caves in - and the person is used to bank hypocritical gossip to
achieve a hypocritical partner which agrees. I consider this to be close to absolute; quite
possibly absolute.

Soo… after getting beat up and mauled by males looking to show personality evidence to
get laid, for engaging in this process, landing myself in jail and then getting mauled and
beat up by cops to steal a gossip which is exchanged for sex, I start thinking…

"Hmm… being gay would kick ass - “hey dude, wanna go at it?” “sure dude” “cool” - and
then I realize that it is a guy and the bubble pops.

It seems that the entire process of ‘moving in’ on females does require deception, unless
I use prostitution. I’m too poor to use prostitution though, and being so, never had the
oppotunity to aquire a moral about it that might be absent had I been wealthy at this stage
in my thinking process. However, I concluded that the very act of aquiring money in this
life equally requires deception; which is unacceptable to me as an axiom.

Here is why. Deception requires the use of acting on knowledge to directly gain consent
when consent would not otherwise be given. Nobody actually wants to give me the money!
I’m here! Nobody wants to actually give me the sex! I’m here! In fact, nobody even offers.
If I ask, I get turned down - unless I can show evidence that I know how to decieve people
and aquire a more efficient system for trapping commodity when it comes through the shoot.
Nobody allows this trapping of commodity when they see it, so you build an army and kill
them, hopefully so that nobody will see that either. Existence itself doesn’t seem to give
a rats ass about my appearance or contributions however; it wants me to modify myself in
order to recognize me with the tangible goals I have been provided.

Deception involves two very important ideas to myself.
1.)The knowledge of using knowledge for consent when consent would otherwise not be given
2.)The use of a system which forces consent when consent would otherwise not be given.

Catagory two is the one where sincerity can only be claimed in ignorance. Catagory two is always absent of observing the sophistication of catagory one. A person may think they know that they are using knowledge to gain consent when it would not otherwise be given, however these systems collapse the point
of doing it when enough of catagory two is abstracted and becomes catagory 1.

Both catagories are used to abuse cognitive age variations for personal fulfillment. The excuse for engaging in this behavior, is that the realization of this will not catch up with you until you are outside of the punishment zone. The person you abused
may commit suicide, you may die of natural causes, or you may find yourself in a situation where they can no longer prove the misdeed. Also, you can always claim the sincerity exception from ignorance - stating “we were just kids, we didn’t know what was going on - i sincerely apologize”.

The problem with these scenarios is that not every involved is a child; and yet still retains fundamental need for some type of acceptance or validation. Individuals who can abuse the system, but are not egotistical enough to presume that ‘better them than someone ignorant’ of the process who is still automating the abuse system; will find themselves continuously de-selected from the reward system until the cognitive ages reach that area.
Unfortunately, this typically does not occur until everybody is a wrinkled wrinkle… and the honorable have long since committed suicide from the dispair of this forsaken existence.

The question I posit to both males and females, what if you had to take a hit for truth, in regards to your perception of value in order to reach a consistent conclusion about this topic?
Would you do it, or would you continue the abusive system, intensifying your potency with the better system dynamics explanations; still casting away those individuals who write your
script and yet do not recieve a fraction of your aknowledgement or respect? Does it matter to you that people are dying in your process, as a result of the attitude “deception is acceptable to getting laid”? Can you even look at that, and comprehend the
reality of it, the potency of how it questions you and your purpose - that you must be deceptive and that people who have a greater gift for deception don’t use it, and suffer greatly for that?

I think it also presents a problem in that if you actually start sending the signals that this is proper behavior, you really start to open the door for all these prodogies of bad-assness to truly smear you into the ground during your own thriving fitness cycle.
Your fitness is primarily a result of their inaction and critique of systems that are far too easy to manipulate, yet very difficult to discourage. I feel that those who believe they are toughing it out, would find themselves quite suprized at what happens when everybody acts the way they do. Not being use to being observed so closely for so long without abusing your systems you would in effect get slammed faster than comprehension.

This seems key, as I consider this to be a very fundamental dynamic occurring in regards to deception and consent.
I also consider it an important issue to resolve and not defer, using the one life - and death as an excuse. Hoping that if you put it off, this will not come to light until you have passed and enjoyed the ‘good days’.

I find that the degree of mapping directly correlated to fraud in the same way that sacrifice and faith directly correlate to the act of suicide. People who see futher down the road can see murder and suicide before others, often times before a lifetime will expire.
This seems to zero in on the “one night stand issue”; and what is acceptable. I completely disagree that deception is acceptable.

-Justhink

To clarify the issue …

How does one look at a rescue mission situation where it is a given that one life needs to be sacrificed in order to give the others a chance? Is it suicide? Is it murder to not try?

How about seeing further down the road?

Let’s consider the acute situation of rape with joy, as in the dentist office scenario – still non-consentual; no pain no loss though right?

Now extend this into blissful life-long parnerships; the same effect is being used - yet it would require one of the individuals hundreds upon hundreds of years in cognitive age development to realize that a rape had actually occurred with psychologial technques that disabled the will. The crime is still the same.
Had they known then what they know now about the intent and practice behind the innitial courtship and how it hampered the ability for someone more thouroughly honest to enter the selection process, it becomes a rather large violation. “This person tricked me into oblivious joy while people have been killing themselves for hundreds of years looking for a geniune partnership - something I always wanted; at least in the instance of one-night stands, I would certainly have chosen those individuals had I the chance to return. I was brainwashed, raped and manipulated from what I declared of my personality when I first met this person - they confused me and stole my gifts to those who give, rather than take.”"

Granted … we’re talking about hundreds of years instead of a few hours. I find the issue to be the same, and I find the use of death to skirt around it, unacceptable.

Now you just have two people who are alive who have forged desolation in their wake, and deception in their years.

-Justhink

“”""""""""“Justhink: you mentioned, earlier, a 70-30 split – 30% of the men are getting most of the women, and the remaining 70% are ignored by the heartless, immature females. Was that it?”"""""""

I am of the impression, from what I tend to observe about this precise dynamic (and I could be wrong), that the percentages are very close to this before the ‘settling process’ occurs. What you have is a situation where the averages don’t reflect the selection process. Females at youth (and in general) tend to gravitate towards a very select peronality type - then they go ‘opposite’, all the while ignoring a vast majority of males in terms of sexual distribution levels. Something like 30% of guys will have ‘dipped’ 70% of females, at which point the females have had their sexual pressure validated in those terms, and then settle into relationships with males who have not. I would actually tighten those percentages towards 20% or even less on the male side.

I figure the ‘spread’ (d’oh) on females who are sexually active (remember, most males are visual on the outset, which tends to exclude a large percentage of obese/‘ugly’ females in the earlier process - who might well be virgins until middle age), to be a constant slamming of sexual activity which equalizes the ratios between these narrow percentages; until the ‘settling process occurs’; at which point the other 70-80% of viable males are then selected from to recieve ‘marriage sex’. While you may be correct in stating that the percentage of virgin males at age 40 is less than females; I still do not think it will address the severeity of this dynamic and how it impacts society as a whole.

So one guy was ‘attacked’ almost passed out at a party, and then has no more sex until 40 – when the marriage settlers come swooping in. It certainly sounds like a cruel possibly delusional scenario, however I would urge people not to dismiss it simply because it would be easy to do so (in ‘my’ language, it would get you ‘paid & laid’ i.e. job, friends salary, sexual partners).
I have no statistics, however my observation of sexual dynamics believes that something like this with percentages reflecting very close to this is actually representative of what occurs.

As far as heartless and immature, nah… I don’t believe stuff like that. Lack of knowledge, lack of experience - I would consider it in those terms if it could be ascertained that contradiction was the selective factor - which I also believe to be the case.

-Justhink

Oh no! Not the ancient question “Is it only wrong if you get caught?” I don’t ever recall seeing that answered to everyone’s satisfaction. Surely this brings us to an impasse?

Enjoy,
Steven

“”""""""""“Oh no! Not the ancient question “Is it only wrong if you get caught?” I don’t ever recall seeing that answered to everyone’s satisfaction. Surely this brings us to an impasse?”""""""

It could hijack the thread, but this is hardly an unanswerable question.

-Justhink

Mtgman and Justhink both have 517 posts at this particular time?

strange coincidence for a strange thread