De'endee Mafia

[Suburban_Plankton]

@Askthepizzaguy

Oh gawd.

Vote: septimus

Locking it in,* for obvious reasons.*

Well, they certainly weren’t obvious to me.

@Askthepizzaguy

Explanations should be needed when people are double voting, or they should be executed. If the explanation seems logical, then perhaps it can be excused. But “no reason” should not be accepted as a reason. We don’t accept that as a reason for a first vote, and doubly so, we shouldn’t accept it for a second one.

@Askthepizzaguy

Request to all: Please do not form large wagons without strong reason. Let the leader be up by 2-3 votes at most. Handicapping ourselves by limiting our options is unwise and unjustifiable.

Well, you’re certainly not helping your own case along here. Explain why we shouldn’t follow your own direction and execute you now? Or do you feel that “for obvious reasons” qualifies as a logical reason for your double vote? And I know that 2 votes does not a bandwagon make, but considering that they were among the first 3 votes of the Day, I’m not sure how else you can logically explain them. And they certainly do seem to “limit your options” for the Day, don’t they?

I have found your play in this game to have been contradictory, inexplicable, and just plain bizarre. I think it has definitely not been pro-Town…I’m just not sure if it’s intended to be anti-Town or not.

[MentalGuy]

I agree with most everyone that Lightfoot should have given it more thought before deciding to claim, but given that she did, I think Ed’s plan of having her reveal her info as close to the end of Night as possible is a good one.

I don’t like ATPG locking in his vote this early, but I can’t really say that I think it makes him likely scum. (On preview, I see Plankton has addressed this, and I agree with the problems he has with it.)

Since I haven’t really found the cases against most players really convincing, I picked a few random players to go back and read their posts (and I plan on doing some more when I have time).

Here are the posts since the game started by GnarlyCharlie.

@gnarlycharlie

PM received.

yes, you can ALWAYS vote Captain Pinkies. i didn’t know we needed permission for that.

@gnarlycharlie

wouldn’t he come more like Metallic Blue Skeezix?

i’ve played with him a couple of times. to be fair, he’s always like that. he was town in both games and he did make me :smack: a couple of times.

it means that’s the maximum level you can get no matter how much experience you get.

@gnarlycharlie

my thoughts on the two-vote mechanic are as follows:

1. it certainly is new and can be unnerving for reasons already mentioned. setting a another deadline prior to the mod-imposed one looks good on paper but i agree that it’s not realistic, not necessarily because players will ignore it but things can happen in RL that require attention or a player’s computer or internet connection dies. how do we enforce the rule? do we then lynch players who do not follow the first deadline? i still would encourage though those who can vote with a day left in the Day to do so.

2. i agree with SP and the others who say that we should be able to justify our votes whether it’s the first or the second. those who vote after the initial deadline may well have to justify harder.

3. i would also like to add that we may also have to justify not using our second vote just as we would have to justify not voting in the traditional on-vote games.

@gnarlycharlie

welcome USCDiver!

i was leaning towards voting for Kelly because of his reaction to Stanislaus’ citing previous games where a misphrase isn’t necessarily a scum tell. i would have been embarrassed but thankful that a flaw in my reasoning was pointed out so i wouldn’t vote for a fellow Town player. his reaction was more like ‘Fine. Whatever.’

however, Askthepizzaguy’s logic for voting Koldanar makes no sense at all.

Vote Askthepizzaguy

i’m still suspicious of Kelly but i’m not ready to make a second vote.

Ed, any reason for pointing out Askthepizzaguy’s post but not voting for him? you haven’t voted yet so it’s not going to lock you in.

@gnarlycharlie

Pizza,

first of all, i hope you don’t mind that i call you that because ATPG doesn’t help me associate itself with you and also because i love pizza.

i also like your concept about pressure votes. i’ve seen sites where Day 1 votes don’t really have much justification although i’ve never played in them. personally, in the sites i’ve played in, we do try to have a reason for Day 1 votes. now, i want to give you the benefit of the doubt. however, i surmised based on your behavior that you are an experienced player and would behave the same way whether town or scum. i believe someone who has played with you has pointed this out.

so while i still get used to your playing style, i will still consider your vote suspicious. i will admit that i’m worried that Kelly has been lynch leader for quite a while with no serious competition. that gives players from other sites pause as well but from my one experience in the Dope, it doesn’t seem to worry people too much.

@gnarlycharlie

i think you’re correct. she doesn’t know she’s playing. i’ll send her a message.

@gnarlycharlie

i’m wondering though why you felt you had to claim. there hasn’t been a recent vote count but isn’t Kelly still lynch leader?

@gnarlycharlie

yes, you aren’t paying attention if you think you can vote Pinkies.

@gnarlycharlie

agreed. Ed wanted to vote for Pinkies too and i thought it was okay as well.

@gnarlycharlie

it could be the mods’ way to prevent handshakes or she’s lying.

@gnarlycharlie

hope to play with you again, KC.

@gnarlycharlie

i agree that there is some power at work. i would think, no, i would hope that scum doesn’t know the role either.

@gnarlycharlie

assuming you are a seer (cop), what makes you think there’s a medic (doc)? it’s a closed setup. IIRC, the past two games here didn’t have a doc. scum could also have a strongman, nullifying any protection. whatever the truth is, you’ve just painted a nice big target on yourself.

the only janitor roles i’ve seen were scum. it would make sense too. even if they deprive themselves of info, they also do that for town and town needs as much info as possible.

I feel Charlie is trying to post enough to seem engaged in the game, but what game discussion there is is almost all generic strategy or game mechanics. I can’t really say that his one vote was a bad vote in the circumstance, but at the time it did look like it might lead to an easy bandwagon on pizzaguy.

Vote Gnarlycharlie
I am also going to repeat my vote on Koldanar from yesterDay. This is for similar reasons to Charlie, in that Koldanar seemed to be posting just to be posting without really saying anything. I also feel that Scathach may have been killed to try to have the case against his main suspect forgotten about.

Vote Koldanar
There are a few other players that I am going to try to look at, but I am not sure when I will be able to do that.

[Normal_Phase]

I very much like the case on gnarly; pending time and energy for the other stuff I want or need to look at (probably Wednesday), I"m going to express that with my second vote.

vote: gnarlycharlie

[special_ed]

Vote: Normal Phase
solely because she scares me

oh, and to use the ever-so-powerful vote pressure to make her slip.

Wait, what do you mean voting for people who I’m not making a strong case against is pointless? it’s pressure, isn’t it? She’ll be sure to crack if a few more of you follow my suit. But not too many, or we’ll have a bandwagon.

Besides, she claimed Vanilla with absolutely no provocation. Perhaps she’s just Scum who had fake Vanilla claims and she was trying to back up a Townie Silver Jan and earn herself some cred should Jan die. (Hey, it’s a real reason for a vote, eh? Now she’ll really feel the pressure.)

This section is for those who will take me literally:

Idiot

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

**Vote: AskThe PizzaGuy**

because this game isn't pressure packed enough.

Oh, wait, I think vote pressure is probably just for the other guys. You know, the ones who close off their options by joining a bandwagon.

or locking their votes in early in a Day

look! tiny tildes! way kewl!

[special_ed]

~

[SIZE=2]Nothing to see here, folks.
[/SIZE]

[Normal_Phase]

Heehee.

[ShadowFacts]

Love it.

[Stanislaus]

@special_ed

no, wait, I’ve got more than bah! to say.

It’s an interesting twist you’ve taken on my conversation with AskThePizzaGuy.

1. I initially questioned him on his voting strategy.
2. I later stated that I understood his approach, and sometimes even use it under different circumstances (one of which Normal later poitned out)
3. I then asked his opinion on the vote leader at the time.

And this is somehow wishy-washy?

Well, yeah. Either you were questioning him because you thought his votes for Red then Koldanar were worth exploring in a “Hmm, there’s something a touch scummy about this” kind of way, in which case the rapidity with which you backed off any suggestion of that is kind of milquetoast, or you were really just having a cheerful little tete a tete with him in which case it’s a somewhat banal conversation. It seemed like you were posting for the sake of posting, not because you had any great point to make.

And also, somehow you characterize my answering questions abot handshaking that KellyCriterion asked as somewhat sinister as well. And even related a discussion about the sue of a term in general with the talk of the Vanilla PM.Ignoring the fact that discussion the Vanilla PM could potentially give useful information the the Scum, while discussing handshaking in the abstract could not.

Or maybe you still fail to see why discussing the Vanilla PM in such a way that you give away details of your own PM is bad.

No, no, no. I see why you stopped the discussion of the vanilla PMs. I see that your contribution was carefully couched to avoid that, either from yourself or anyone else. Except that simply by keeping asking questions you kept the topic alive, and your warning about revealing details of PMs only came - alas! - after a couple of people arguably had. You’re smart enough to have seen the danger early on, so I’m wondering why you didn’t make a big deal with your first post on the topic to warn everyone of the risks. And the little suspicious part of me that won’t ever let me get truly close to anyone says it’s because you wanted to give people a chance to slip up before stepping in with your big pro-Town warning.
I have to go now - time and tilde wait for no man.

[Suburban_Plankton]

@special_ed

Or the Scum could just block Lightfoot for 1 Night and kill whoever she investigated. then we’ve got a claimed Doc and no confirmed Town by Day 3.

There certainly are drawback t identifying your results as an investigator. The primary being they become targets of the Scum.

However, in a closed game where the death of a claimed investigator is always possible, there are benefits to identifying them as well.

So the Scum have a Roleblocker, then? When did you discover that little tidbit?

And where does the Doc claim come from? Or should that have read Cop?

[Suburban_Plankton]

@Stanislaus

I think the best way to generate the kind of situation we want (i.e. close contention between suspects, at least one of which is actually Scum) is to put more effort into making cases on more people. We’ve a tendency to let one or two cases develop and then coast. We need to all contribute a bit more to the creation of suspects - if we can get three or four plausible cases going, then the problem of bandwagoning should solve itself. And of course we’ll have a better chance of bringing scum under scrutiny.

And we’ll all get accused of ‘mudslinging’

[special_ed]

@Suburban_Plankton

So the Scum have a Roleblocker, then? When did you discover that little tidbit?

And where does the Doc claim come from? Or should that have read Cop?

That should have read Cop.

and I don’t know that Scum have a roleblocker, but my scenario is one we can add to the list of possibilities and the list of reasons why Lightfoot revealing who she investigated has drawbacks.

[special_ed]

@Stanislaus

Well, yeah. Either you were questioning him because you thought his votes for Red then Koldanar were worth exploring in a “Hmm, there’s something a touch scummy about this” kind of way, in which case the rapidity with which you backed off any suggestion of that is kind of milquetoast, or you were really just having a cheerful little tete a tete with him in which case it’s a somewhat banal conversation. It seemed like you were posting for the sake of posting, not because you had any great point to make.

Or maybe I wanted him to express an opinion on our lynch leader, since his votes while designed to apply pressure to others, were also providing a potential out for KellyCriterion.

@Stanislaus

No, no, no. I see why you stopped the discussion of the vanilla PMs. I see that your contribution was carefully couched to avoid that, either from yourself or anyone else. Except that simply by keeping asking questions you kept the topic alive, and your warning about revealing details of PMs only came - alas! - after a couple of people arguably had. You’re smart enough to have seen the danger early on, so I’m wondering why you didn’t make a big deal with your first post on the topic to warn everyone of the risks. And the little suspicious part of me that won’t ever let me get truly close to anyone says it’s because you wanted to give people a chance to slip up before stepping in with your big pro-Town warning.
I have to go now - time and tilde wait for no man.

Oh, you mean post something like the following in bold and large font immediately following KellyCriterion’s handshake attempt?

@special_ed

Under no circumstances should anyone respond to this post with information from our own PMs. There is a chance it could differentiate power roles and non-power roles.

Now why didn’t I think of that?

[Trepa_Mayfield]

[quote=“Normal_Phase, post:490, topic:588052”]

Something about this post of yours, and in particular this part, feels too facile, Shadowfacts, as if it’s analysis based on what you perceive to be the objective data at hand, but haven’t truly thought about, since you already know the answer. It’s thin, but it’s there. I’ll look at you more on Monday.[/color]

I didn’t really understand what you meant by this, and I didn’t understand your follow-up explanation (or I just missed it). If you could explain it again?

@Stanislaus

Lightfoot, I think your decision to out yourself was a very risky one. What’s done is done, however so we’ll have to hope that we do have a Doc (and that it wasn’t Scathach!) and that the Scum don’t have a roleblocker or strongman. One thing that I should point out is that right now, our putative Doc’s decision is pretty easy. lwe manage to out any more power roles, however, things get harder. Now, this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t vote for people for fear that they’re power roles; I think it does mean, however, that power-roles should make a real effort not to reach immediately for the role claim if they come under pressure. Games here have seen people claim fairly early in the day, with leads of only 2 or 3 votes. I would say that if you find yourself in that situation, try to tough it out by arguing the case against you first, and only claiming if you really, really have to. I know that’s a difficult judgement call, but if we back ourselves into a WIFOM fight between our notional Doc and scum then we’ll be in bigger trouble than we are now.

Regarding Lightfoot’s claim–I doubt much good will come of it, but there’s not much to discuss now that it’s done. Lightfoot is now Batman to our GCPD–let him operate how he will, as strategic discussion is hardly likely to influence him (since he already claimed) and open discussion could tank his plans anyway. And he lives in a cave.

Which is not to say that I trust him unreservedly, mind.

@Stanislaus

One other thing I wanted to comment on: Pizza, you do know that not only was your idea of late pile-on voting discussed at length and rejected yesterDay, but that one of the major advocates of the plan was Septimus? Had you even done a cursory review of his posts?

@Askthepizzaguy

Oh gawd.

Vote: septimus

Locking it in,* for obvious reasons.*

@TexCat

Huh? I guess all of these words were just a bunch of hooey. Seems to me that you have pretty severely limited your options now, PizzaGuy. Willing to to consider other alternatives? Uh, huh. Need time? Four days left in Today, but I guess you chose not to use that time. Care to tell us why exactly were you in such a hurry to lock in your vote?

AskthePizzaGuy is leading the town around by the nose. He’s playing in a way that is blatantly anti-town–leading bandwagons based on less than intuition, and proposing anti-town ideas out of the opposite side of his mouth that’s denouncing septimus for those ideas. He’s got an all-purpose excuse that he’s pulling out anytime anyone calls him on it (culture clash), and Normal Phase is–wittingly or not–making it socially awkward for anyone to call him on it. I expect he believes that, since being brazen as balls worked out for him Day 1, he is simply expecting his shield of social awkwardness to last forever.

Vote: AskthePizzaGuy

And I’m confident enough to do it again!

Vote: AskthePizzaGuy

@Suburban_Plankton

So the Scum have a Roleblocker, then? When did you discover that little tidbit?

And where does the Doc claim come from? Or should that have read Cop?

Eh? I imagine Ed was talking in hypothetical, as most strategy discussion tends to devolve into. And as far as hypos go, a Scum Roleblocker is not exactly a stretch.

[Mahaloth]

**Vote Count:

Septimus(2): Askthepizzaguy, Askthepizzaguy,

ShadowFacts(1): Normal

Specialed(1): Stanislaus

Gnarly(2): Mentalguy, Normal

Koldanar(1): Mentalguy

Normal(1): Specialed

Askthepizzaguy(3): Specialed, Pedescribe, Pedescribe
**

[Suburban_Plankton]

@pedescribe

@Suburban_Plankton

So the Scum have a Roleblocker, then? When did you discover that little tidbit?

And where does the Doc claim come from? Or should that have read Cop?

Eh? I imagine Ed was talking in hypothetical, as most strategy discussion tends to devolve into. And as far as hypos go, a Scum Roleblocker is not exactly a stretch.

I’m *fairly *sure that **Ed **was speaking in the hypothetical…but with Ed, one can never be quite certain. Scum Roleblocker is not a big stretch, but it’s also not the most common role around.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I love how I’m “leading the town around by the nose” when my ideas are all rejected, as are my vote candidates.

And I’ll say it again, for emphasis.

[special_ed]

@Askthepizzaguy

I love how I’m “leading the town around by the nose” when my ideas are all rejected, as are my vote candidates.

And I’ll say it again, for emphasis.

No, no,no! You’re doing it all wrong! React to the vote pressure! make a slip! something. Come on!

[Askthepizzaguy]

@special_ed

No, no,no! You’re doing it all wrong! React to the vote pressure! make a slip! something. Come on!

I can’t, I’m not under nearly enough pressure. I demand more votes on me, locked in. Only then will I struggle with the pain of it all, and announce what role I have.

Or, I’m a bad lynch but not a horrible one since it will get you guys off of suspecting me and it’s very early.

[special_ed]

@Askthepizzaguy

I can’t, I’m not under nearly enough pressure. I demand more votes on me, locked in. Only then will I struggle with the pain of it all, and announce what role I have.

Or, I’m a bad lynch but not a horrible one since it will get you guys off of suspecting me and it’s very early.

pity, I was really looking forward to the whimsical voting to apply pressure strategy lead us to a triumphant victory.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@special_ed

pity, I was really looking forward to the whimsical voting to apply pressure strategy lead us to a triumphant victory.

Well, we could always have 10 people dogpile the same candidate, leaving no choice but to claim or die, and not much recourse if one has a decent claim to make, and giving loads of analysis-worthy posts to read near the endgame.