Defending Oneself (longish)

My next door neighbour works in a police call center, and a few nights ago, she was contacted by the guys who run the CCTV cameras in manchester - a teenager was on the floor (outside the printworks, for those living in mancester), being kicked around by two other young men. He was curled into a foetal ball and was taking some serious punishment from these guys. My neighbour immediately sent two police officers to the area.

When they arrived, they found a guy on the floor with blood everywhere. Turns out his ribs were halfway into his lungs, his skull was fractured - he was in a very bad way. (I assume he still is)

After calling an ambulance, the guys from the CCTV told the police that this wasn’t the guy who was being kicked about on the ground. That guy had gotten up and proceeded to smack about his two attackers (apparently he used some kind of martial art) knocking one of them to the ground, whilst the other attacker ran off.

Unfortunatly, the attacker who was knocked to the ground hit his head on the pavement as he fell, and may loose his life. If he dies the person who was attacked will go to jail for at the very least manslaughter, possibly murder (the tape shows him clearly hitting the attacker around the head, which could have caused the skull fracture) in which case my neighbour informs me he will be spending the next twenty years in jail.

The defender is eighteen years old, and was out celebrating his friends birthday. He (I am told) is intelligent, planned to go to university and has never commited any kind of crime before.

I’m not too sure how I feel about this. I don’t know the reasons for the fight, but I do thank that when you’re getting kicked about on the floor by superiour numbers you do at the least have the right to stand up and defend yourself - and to be frank, you’re best defended when it’s your attacker on the ground. I’ve been wondering all weekend if this boy deserves twenty years of jail for ten seconds of unluckiness.

Similarly, a friend of mine was attacked late at night by a mugger, and threw the guy to the floor (my friend does aikido.) The mugger broke his hip on the curb. The only thing that saved my friend from being sent to jail for grevious bodily harm and having to pay compensation, was a knife found nearby that was traced to the attacker - my friend (well, his lawyers) convinced the judge that he was defending himself from a possible stabbing.

Now, I do think that if you are attacked for no reason - as my friend was (no drunken argument or anything of that nature) then I don’t think the attacker should have any reason to complain, nor any rights in the law to demand compensation for the consequences of their assault.

Under British law, it is illegal to carry any form of weapon (blunt, edged or firearm) for the purposes of personal protection.

Although this thread should probably be in great debates as to whether the law has got it right in these two cases, im interesed in seeing if any dopers know of similar cases, where it has been the attackers whom the law has sided with. Thank you.

In general, I would say that I’d rather be “judged by 12 than carried by 6”. Being the victim of an attack and being alive to stand trail for your actions is superior to is superior to dead in a coffin.

Is a video tape of a man down on the ground, curled fetal, getting the shit kicked out of him by two other guys, not enough evidence that the guy was in fear of his life??

I don’t know for sure, but I think a lot of states in the USA have laws that authorize the use of lethal force if you reasonably believe that your life is in danger. I know in my home state of Colorado you have a right to shoot to kill anyone who invades your home and you reasonably believe to be threatening your life or health, or the life or health of your family.

Frankly I think England’s laws, if accurately described in the OP, are A) violations of the fundamental right of all creatures to defend themselves from attack, and B) pointless victim disarmament
C) blaming the victim. (“He was asking for it, your honor. Just look at how he was dressed!”)

And I’m not some gun-toting, backwoods redneck vicious hatemonger, either. I’m someone who thinks gun control is at least a nominally good idea (there are exceptions) and who abhors violence.

But damnit, if someone goes and starts beating up on someone else for no reason (bad enough), and then doesn’t stop even after said person hits the ground (just plain evil), then they get what they deserve. There is never any reason to get physically violent, except in self-defense. Those who initiate violence are the offenders, and they shouldn’t be surprised if they get their asses kicked once in a while.

Did the guy who was curled up fetal continue to kick the other guy once he fell? Or did he fight only long enough to defend his own life and only hit the other guy in self-defense? The tape will tell. If the guy with the skull fracture was standing when the blows hit, I don’t think it would be at all unreasonable to conclude that the “karate kid” was just scared and trying to defend himself. He didn’t know his own strength, but who really does in the middle of an adrenaline high? Bottom line, he didn’t start the fight, and he didn’t want to fight. He was forced to fight to defend his life. He tried not to fight by curling up and letting himself get beat on.

Yeah, I’m SOOO concerned for the random morons who went and started beating up on a random person. That’s wrong, period. Their stupidity is further proven by the fact that they didn’t think about the possibility that he might be a 4th dan black belt - or carrying a gun, illegally or not. :stuck_out_tongue: It reminds me of the stupid carjacker who tried to carjack the olympic judo team’s minivan while they were in it. Don’t beat up on people and they won’t beat up on you! DUH!

Punish this guy? We should give him a pat on the back for teaching a stupid pair of bullies an unforgettable lesson. Maybe now they’ll figure out that it’s not cool to beat up on people at random for fun.

Most martial arts students of any decent skill are fairly peace loving people anyway. The guy probably is already wracked with guilt and accusing himself of not being skilled or strong enough to deal with them in a more controlled way. I bet he never gets into a fight again in his life.
-Ben

Ditto what the first respondant just said.

I used to follow a discussion board which counted a large number of police officers among its members, some of them British. Even these British police complained that the laws in Britain are now far too harsh on self-defense.

America is slowly going the same way, too. It’s stupidity on such a massive scale that it almost makes the usual conspiracy theories look plausible.

I’d say it doesn’t even matter. Obviously these guys intended him serious harm – he’s fetal on the pavement and they keep beating him up. From that point on anything he does to get home is fine with me. He’s fighting two vicious guys, if he has to put one in hospital to win the fight, that’s their fault not his. If he’s concerned about not hurting them too badly then he’s the one who gets his ass kicked. One of them ran off? Maybe he was going to get more ruffians.

I have to agree with you there, I know quite a number of people who do martial arts, and I have to say that they are the most controlled individuals I know. They know what they can do, and they know that their skills are not to be used for any old situation that they see fit. They are aware of what they can do to people, and most will not even use what they have learnt in difficult situations.

Most schools of martial art teach their students only to fight if there is no other option, which includes not being able to run away. Self-preservation is the main reason that these kids decide to learn martial arts; and now they’re being told that they can’t use it in the most dire circumstances?!

That’s the world for you; it tries to protect everyone, but then forgets who the people are who really need protecting.

I think that the person being referred to did just the right thing, those bullies got what they deserved.