What is the difference between and organized religion and an organized criminal enterprise based upon religion? They both employ forms of brainwashing to get money out of your pockets. Some have just been around longer, have more followers, and are just more subtle at the brainwashing than others is all the difference that I see.
I wonder if proportionally atheists are as upset about the COS as other religious types worried about the COS horning in on their racket?
Name for me the people the Catholic Church has killed in this country, please. Name for me the people the Catholic Church has forced to disconnect from their families in this country. Name for me the people the Catholic Church has attempted to frame for bomb threats.
It’s so damned trendy and tolerant to think everyone is on the same moral plane. It’s so damned easy to turn off your mind and stop making moral judgments. Criminal organizations don’t need to be tolerated. Anything that hurts other people (except in self-defense) needs to be stopped.
Among other things, the leaders of organized religions are at least sincere about their beliefs. While I’m sure the Pope likes being driven around in the popemobile and living in a Renaissance villa, I doubt he became pope for that reason. I’m sure he really believes in God and the tenents of Catholicism and tries to do what he thinks is best for the Catholics of the world. Even somebody like Fred Phelps, insane hateful asshole though he may be, really believes that the US is damned to hell and that he has a responsibility to call the rest of us out on our evil behavior.
That’s different than a con artist who uses religious trappings to get money from his victims.
Wow. That’s a lot of hostility and ignorance over a poorly worded OP. Having been a lurker here, the hostility I expected. Just not the rest. I’m going to do my best to explain some of this, and I apologise in advance if I repeat anything already said.
Here is a better link to what is happening in the video. Sorry there isn’t a better cite than WikiNews, but it’s not exactly on the front page of the local newspaper.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Protesters_arrested_at_anti-Scientology_event_in_Atlanta
This has already been shown to be incorrect, but here is a better link to what Anonymous really is. Why We Protest
Because it’s not your cause, it’s pointless? I’d have attended both, but I’d only need to hide my identity at one. And for the record, I do not have anything pokemon or live in a basement.
I think you and I have a very different definition of “vigilante justice.” Perhaps you can show me what the people in that video did illegally? What the ticketed motorists did? Here is a video that I really recommend. It’s about the last Anonymous protest on 2-10-08, and how Anonymous got started. Road to 2-10
Please show me the “vigilante justice” in that.
I hope you have lots of money. They don’t give it away for free. But if you really want to see what they have, I suggest xenu.net
The biggest difference is the lack of a price tag on salvation. I don’t know of any mainstream religion that requires you to pay thousands of dollars to even be able to read their texts. Go attend a Catholic church service. I’m willing to bet that you receive the same treatment as everyone else, regardless of what you decided to donate.
But if you are interested in the Co$ purely from a religious standpoint, I’d suggest looking into Free Zone Same religion. No cost.
Anonymous is not an attack on freedom of religion or freedom of speech.
How many people are dying in Africa because of the Church’s view on condoms? Now that is fucking criminal if you asked me.
Last I heard the COS isn’t a criminal organization. Unless something has changed in the last day or two. Have the leaders of the COS been arrested for something related to the COS? Have the doors to their churches been boarded up? Nope? Who again has their mind turned off?
Someone has you up on a stake pouring gasoline on your head, do you really care if they are doing it because they truly believe you are possessed by the devil or just because they will make a buck off their actions by appealing to their flock?
I can’t walk into a Mosque without being a Muslim. I can’t go into portions of the Mormon Temple. I’m sure there are things that the higher up Catholics are privy to that aren’t known to their common members. Everyone is expected to help pay for these churches, temples, and mosques. Those that pay the most probably have access to things that others don’t.
That wasn’t really answering his questions. It has nothing to do with religion or freedom of expression in the US.
The Catholic Church also thinks you shouldn’t be having premarital sex, so arguing that people only following half their doctrine are proof that the Catholic Church is killing people is a stretch.
Now whether you agree with Catholic doctrine or not is a different topic. And one that is only connected to this thread in thinnest sense.
And you’ve hit on the point of the protests. We’d like to see changes in how the CoS is treated here in the US and elsewhere. Make membership illegal? That seems a pretty big leap. How about just a shift towards something like Free Zone? Or let their tax exempt status be revoked have them be treated like any other business.
Then maybe we can get to work on investigating this list.
www.scientology=lies.com/investigation.html
I’m sorry they won’t let you wander all around their buildings. I think you’re missing a big point. Go to the Mosque or Temple. Ask them about their faith. They’ll be happy to tell you all about it. Don’t like what you hear? Leave. You won’t be able to do either with the CoS.
Despite what Dan Brown might have told you, it’s extremely unlikely the Christian Church has somehow managed to sit on some secret doctrine for over two thousand years and innumerable schisms.
Obviously, I can’t detail every religion and how it handles donations, but I can compare the CoS with the one I am familiar with. I’ll use the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) for my example.
Those that pay more do not have access others do not have. You don’t have to pay anything. Yes, they ask for donations. Yes, they suggest 10%. Do they count? Do they look and see how much I’ve earned? No. Would anyone know if I gave $1 or $10,000 dollars this week? Well, the person who counts the donations would. Someone has to keep track for tax purposes and to see how much the church has in the bank. But I can’t even imagine the scandal that would occur if they started talking about who donated what and how much.
Don’t feel like making a donation? That’s between you and God.
Anyway, this whole thread is just confusing. Somehow it’s gone from outrage that a peacefull protest in Georgia was harrassed by the police to a defense of Scientology against Anonymous.
Sorry for the double post, but I can’t edit.
The correct link for the post above is www.scientology-lies.com/investigation.html
Then why are not the protesters protesting the government to make the necessary changes? Why should a legitimate organization be subject to a protest if they are not doing anything illegal? Or is it just because the CoS does things people don’t like?
I’d agree to the tax exempt status being removed. For all religions, though. Just because one is more popular than another at this point in time shouldn’t get them a break.
I saw a whole bunch of links in this thread detailing what the CoS is about. It isn’t like any prospective convert can’t look that information up if they wanted to.
Why yes, they have. In 1977, at least a dozen high-ranking Scientologist officers were arrested and convicted for their participation in Operation Snow White, a highly organized series of break-ins and acts of espionage against the US federal government and private citizens. Most were sentenced to five years or more. There have been other criminal matters concerning church officers since then, such as the Lisa McPherson case and several others.
Personally, I don’t give a shit what people do, as long as they don’t interfere with my rights or anyone else’s, or attempt to scam me out of my money. The vast majority of religious people and organizations do not breach this simple standard. CoS does.
Because a letter writing campaign only gets you so far? Because general public awareness is seen as more important? Because we can never match the amount of lobby funds a group like the CoS could generate?
CoS is less religion and more pyramid scheme. And I suppose you’ll never accept that many of the practices and procedures of the CoS are of questionable legal nature. Or that many of them have been of flat out illegal either.
I know, I provided many of them. That more than anything is the goal of Anonymous. Let people read about it themselves. If you choose to believe that Xenu strapped your immortal thetan in a volcano, blew the hell out of it, then made you watch bad home movies, that’s your choice. But you should be given the choice to decide for yourself.
You may have noticed that not one of those links is an official Church of Scientology cite. Those don’t exist. They can’t exist for the CoS to operate as it does now. CoS relies heavily on a bait and switch aproach to their doctrine.
I’m really confused as to what you don’t like about Anonymous. I have no clue which way to direct a counter arguement. Are you opposed to protesting in general? Are you like the previous poster who thinks I should get out of the basement and my pokemon collection and go do something? Do you dislike all religion and simply see the CoS as one more? That we should either shut the hell up or protest every church the same? Are you actually intending to defend the practices of Scientology and convince me that I’m wrong in my opinon of them?
Bingo.
Not in the least. It is common knowledge that L.Ron made the whole thing up. Which, frankly, is not any different from how any other religion started out. If you give money to them, or allow yourself to be scammed by them (assuming they aren’t doing this illegally), then more power to them for parting fools from their money.
Bedlo, I notice that you state you’ve been lurking a bit but you might not be aware that the Pit is a forum in which the usual rules of polite debate don’t apply, and as such I think you’re getting a more “in your face” reaction than if this discussion were taking place elsewhere, such as in Great Debates, for instance. I realize you didn’t pick the venue, but were jumping in to elucidate on a less than clear OP. Since you seem to be pretty conversant with Anonymous, you might want to consider opening up a separate thread in GD to debate that the CoS actually deserves to be demonstrated against more than other, more mainstream religions. Or perhaps to debate that CoS doesn’t actually qualify as a religion, perhaps. I think you’ll find a more measured, less confrontational atmosphere in which your points can be discussed on their merits. I, for one, would like to hear more about the rationale for Anonymous, especially the reasons why the CoS has been targeted specifically.
After all, you’ve gone ahead and started your guest membership and now you have 30 days to kill, why not? 
Oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope, BTW!
You don’t seem to entirely grasp the concept behind public protest. The entire point of a protest is to target a legitimate organization that is doing something you don’t like, in an attempt to either convince the organization to change, and/or to raise sufficient social support to de-legitimize the organization. You do not, as a general rule, protest things that are already illegal. If something’s already illegal, there’s a much more immediate and effective remedy: report them to the police.
A “legitimate” organization should be subject to protests because the ability to voice one’s opinions, and to congregate in public, is the inalienable right of every American citizen. The legality of the organization’s actions is immaterial to the exercise of this right. Just because there’s no law against what you’re doing, does not mean I can’t call you an asshole for doing it. And I can tell anyone I want that you’re an asshole, too. And I can get together with a thousand of my close, personal friends, and we can all call you an asshole in concert. Doing this is the very foundation of American society. We shot a whole bunch of British soldiers for the right to call legitimate people doing legal things assholes. It’s part of our national character. “Legal and legitimate” are not a shield against public criticism. Rather, such public criticism is a necessary component to the proper function of a democratic society.
And, yes, the Church of Scientology is being targeted because the protestors don’t like the Church of Scientology. I figured that went without saying.
heh heh my original problem in this situation isnt the scientologists honestly… its the underhandedness. apparently now as people try to contact the dekal officers they try to say they werent there and werent issuing tickets, to ask the local dunwoody officers. The dunwoody officers are saying the same thing.non of the officers at the scen identified themselves or gave badge numbers or cards according to some witnesses on the xenu.net message boards. its just striking as odd that they had so may protests worldwide and only 1 of them had problems. Theres even been denials to the arrest… even though its clearly on video!
I’m pretty sure I do understand the concept of protesting. Yet, this is an organization that is legally allowed to go about it’s business. Wouldn’t it be more effective to lobby the lawmakers to do something about this business and make the activities illegal rather than protesting the business itself? I just don’t like the concept that because you don’t like what I do you can harass me at your leisure.
You show a fundamental lack of understanding of Scientology. The religion is not like Christianity; it relies on ‘steps’ and must be learned, grokked, whatever, in a specific order. If a religion must be studied in steps, in order to fully absorb what it’s all about, then the ONLY way to prevent people from skipping ‘steps’ is to charge a fee for the material. Call that too convenient for the the ‘criminal enterprise’ if you’d like, but this religion is not like Christianity or Judaism.
How would you go about changing the laws then? If you are opposed to any sort of public display, how will you get word out? It seems to me that writing my congressman is the least likely to succeed method out there.
I’d also think that you would then be against a group that has picketed outside the homes of its critics. There’s a big difference between that and what Anonymous has done in front of CoS.
But in any case, I know it’s largely useless to continue in this thread. If you won’t accept public protest as a legitimate way to change social perception/laws or that we can’t picket one without picketing all, there isn’t anything more I can tell you. Other than you have to start somewhere, why not here?
And thanks for the welcome, SmartAleq. To be honest I’ve never really read much outside of General Questions. The few debates I have read in Great Debates leave me a bit nervous. Uzi is like a 4chan idiot with better grammar and spelling, no real reasoning to anything besides “I don’t like it” Other people on this board intimidate me a bit 
I know what and why I feel the way I do, but baring my views to people ready and able to pick them apart is a little scary.
Still, I’ll think of a good way to phrase what I want to say and head over there. I was really suprised by the early posters in this thread that had never heard of Anonymous.
Indeed it does. Learn to high up without the proper training and it blows out your brains. Or something like that.
You may have missed it, but I have given a link to Free Zone earlier as an alternative for those who support the religion without the price tag.
Not to hijack, but this seems like the best place to ask; what was the CoS’s reaction to the South Park episode(episodes if you count Chef’s departure)?
I don’t remember hearing that they really went after Parker and Stone, or rather Smith and Smith according to the credits. I kind of figured they saw how poorly that went for Phil Donahue and the Catholic Church and decided to let it go, but that doesn’t really seem to fit their m.o…
I hope that you stick around and the Dope and this particular thread. You are doing admirably.