Anon's war on scientology: good or bad?

Great Debates
1

For the few of you who haven’t heard about this story, there is a brief, but accurate article in the economist that explains the whole thing.

I think it’s fascinating concept, all told. I’ve vaguely heard about stupid “raids” before but this has much broader appeal. An international, chaotic taskforce whose members simply agree on a few Universally Bad Things. Anonymous, as weird and juvenile a community as it is, is as open as anything can be. Anyone can become part of it for a minute, an hour, whenever they feel like it. The whole thing has a certain romantic charm, like anarchy or libertarianism I suppose.

My question is : will this harm scientology or give it a boost?

On the one hand, more information is spread through the old media and the various blogs and forums, which might give people a negative view of scientology and prevent some of them from joining.

On the other hand, the scientologists get publicity and will no doubt spin all this as persecution and score some martyrdom points. It might also help with internal problems as external enemies always do.

The deeper question is: is there really anything that can be done to weaken a cult once it has gotten as big as scientology has? Does anyone think project chanology has a shot? If so, what’s the best or worse they can do?

2

[QUOTE=Gozu]
I think it’s fascinating concept, all told. I’ve vaguely heard about stupid “raids” before but this has much broader appeal. An international, chaotic taskforce whose members simply agree on a few Universally Bad Things.
[/QUOTE]

So far, there is no evidence that the international, chaotic taskforce consists of anything more than a few guys engaging in what might be performance art or just general stupidity. Some of their “Raid” videos rip off the opening of the trailer for “Cloverfield” and are clearly just put ons.

Won’t last a year. I wish it would, but I wouldn’t bet five dollars on it.

3

It’ll end, and soon, and with Scientology still standing, but in the meantime Anonymous is getting solidly researched Anti-Scientology information out there. I’ve seen a few people converted from “yeah, it’s kinda kooky, but so are all religions” to “wow, what a dangerous cult” when pointed to information on Operations Snow White and Freakout.

And every little bit helps.

4

[QUOTE=Gozu]
My question is : will this harm scientology or give it a boost?
[/quote]

Neither. If Battlefield Earth and Tom Cruise’s tiring crap over the last few years didn’t bring down Scientology, then this won’t either. (Not that I would know, but I doubt that stuff had any effect on membership for the group.) I don’t think this is a bad thing, but it’s primarily for entertainment - these people wanted to watch the Cruise video because it’s funny or weird, and they’re mad at Scientology for trying to take their entertainment away - and something else more interesting will come along in time.

5

[QUOTE=Menocchio]
It’ll end, and soon, and with Scientology still standing, but in the meantime Anonymous is getting solidly researched Anti-Scientology information out there. I’ve seen a few people converted from “yeah, it’s kinda kooky, but so are all religions” to “wow, what a dangerous cult” when pointed to information on Operations Snow White and Freakout.

And every little bit helps.
[/QUOTE]

This. In the end, this will be the movement’s legacy, and it’s not a bad one. With an organization like the Church of Scientology, knowledge is one of the key factors in defeating it. The more people who recognize the cult for what it is, the more their recruitment base suffers. So the Anonymous movement has definitely done something already; what remains to be seen is to how far will the message spread.

The intriguing thing to me about this whole affair is that this is possibly the first time a purely internet-born and internet-driven phenomenon has translated into significant real-world, political activism. Usually, the web has been a tool of already existing groups; for this to just arise out of nothing must be a historic event.

The organizational structure (as can be observed on the Something Awful and Enturbulation forums) is fascinating, as well; amorphous and cell-like, ideas are thrown out and adopted in the most democratic of fashions: those who like the idea adopt it, and those who don’t, don’t. There’s a lot of tension between how centralized it should be, how united the message should be, whether or not to accept those just after “lulz” (and not too serious about the actual activism), and even the actual identity of the movement itself (should they actually rally under the banner “Anonymous”, or de-emphasize the group?). Every “cell” (i.e. the planning groups for the different cities) is making their own choices with regards to the above, and thus the diversity in message and tactics will be enormous for an ostensibly unified movement. There have already been ‘infiltrations’ of those actively seeking to sabotage plans, but of course, those typically can only seriously affect individual cells.

It feels like how resistance movements or terrorist organizations might operate; no head, diffusion of power and resources, and a wide range of styles and approaches. It’s only united by the fact that all these people can agree on a single thing. It may make the media and public uneasy, as there is no recognizable ‘face’ that can represent and speak for the movement. But it’s certainly romantic, and I think it will eventually capture some of the hearts and minds out there.

Beyond this particular anti-CoS affair, I really wonder if this is a harbinger of things to come; once it’s been done already, can a vast swath of the Internet pick up more real-life projects in the future? What else can possibly unify and motivate the normally lazy and bickering online masses?

6

I think it has got to harm Scientiology, even if only a little-(ish) bit. Getting more people to take notice of information about it can only do good.

Two of my cousins were in it, although one has got out and I am simply not sure about the other one, nor at all sure where he is. I doubt I will make it to the thingy in Edinburgh, but anything that helps people realise that this is not merely harmless eccentricity seems quite good.

7

[QUOTE=Windwalker]

The intriguing thing to me about this whole affair is that this is possibly the first time a purely internet-born and internet-driven phenomenon has translated into significant real-world, political activism. Usually, the web has been a tool of already existing groups; for this to just arise out of nothing must be a historic event.

The organizational structure (as can be observed on the Something Awful and Enturbulation forums) is fascinating, as well; amorphous and cell-like, ideas are thrown out and adopted in the most democratic of fashions: those who like the idea adopt it, and those who don’t, don’t. There’s a lot of tension between how centralized it should be, how united the message should be, whether or not to accept those just after “lulz” (and not too serious about the actual activism), and even the actual identity of the movement itself (should they actually rally under the banner “Anonymous”, or de-emphasize the group?). Every “cell” (i.e. the planning groups for the different cities) is making their own choices with regards to the above, and thus the diversity in message and tactics will be enormous for an ostensibly unified movement. There have already been ‘infiltrations’ of those actively seeking to sabotage plans, but of course, those typically can only seriously affect individual cells.
[/quote]

I couldn’t agree more. the thing that intrigues me most is the absolutely open nature of group. To put this in serious terms:

All their plans, ideas and weapons (flyers, damning church documents, URLs,etc.) are known to their enemy. And the enemy can even edit them (though the clearly malicious edits will be detected shortly). The enemy can infiltrate them easily and thoroughly since everybody is anonymous.

The concept of this leaderless, “open source” guerilla just seems insane to me. It probably is, militarily speaking. But can it work in a civilian setting if the parties behave (mostly) legally? I wonder.

I couldn’t agree more. One thing you haven’t mentionned, is the absolutely open nature of group. To put it in serious terms:

All their plans, ideas and weapons (flyers, damning church documents, URLs,etc.) are known to their enemy. And the enemy can even edit them (though the clearly malicious edits will be detected shortly). The enemy can infiltrate them easily and thoroughly since everybody is anonymous.

The concept of this leaderless, “open source” guerilla just seems insane to me. It probably is, militarily speaking. But can it work in a civilian setting if the parties behave (mostly) legally? I wonder.

8

I use to think those antismoking commercials where a waste of time, but because they’re so well done and so common I really do think it makes an impact on the young. Bad press works, and simply having a public discussion about CoS is bad press for them.

9

Wow…I have no words. Read this post.

10 days later, the worldwide protests of february 10th numbered around 10,000 participants, about 10 times what I had expected. I figured maybe 2 or 3 dozen people would show up in a major city. Apparently, some cities had around 500 people.

Enturbulation.org is growing rapidly (2000+ people registered in the last couple days) and new protests are scheduled for march 15th called “The ides of march”. I had figured this whole thing would have tapered off by now.

The CoS is smearing anonymous as fast as it can (KKK, communists, nazis, bigots, terrorists, etc.) and is not being very convincing.

I think Anon might cause a lot more trouble to the CoS than I thought possible.

Fascinating stuff!

10

[QUOTE=Celyn]
I doubt I will make it to the thingy in Edinburgh, but anything that helps people realise that this is not merely harmless eccentricity seems quite good.
[/QUOTE]
FYI, I was on a bus going past the demo on Sunday at around noon - there were probably about 150 demonstrators but the police were keeping them on the other side of the road from the HQ. (A main door leading to 2 or 3 floors above the shops on North Bridge).
Looked to be fun and peaceful.

11

Thanks for that update, Meurglys. 150 is not at all bad, pretty good really. Little acorns, great oaks and so on. :slight_smile: I imagine more turned up later, and Sundays are lousy days for getting to things by bus and train (heh, yes, says Celyn ruefully, I know this).

12

[QUOTE=Celyn]
Thanks for that update, Meurglys. 150 is not at all bad, pretty good really. Little acorns, great oaks and so on. :slight_smile: I imagine more turned up later, and Sundays are lousy days for getting to things by bus and train (heh, yes, says Celyn ruefully, I know this).
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it’s better than the one guy who showed up in Tokyo. Of course, now he’s called “balls of steel” :smiley:

13

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Yes, it’s better than the one guy who showed up in Tokyo. Of course, now he’s called “balls of steel” :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Well done, that guy!

Or I am being whooshed and you mean you are in fact in Tokyo rather than Florida and you were that masked man? :smiley: Bloody well done anyway, whatever.

Ought I to feel bad that I still will not really trust the cousin who left Scientology, in that it seems to me that he has retained a whole lot of the manipulating people tricks, or perhaps that is just because his mother was so pleased to see him come back again that she will tolerate much? I don’t know.

Anyway, is Scientology “big in Japan” then? Seems an odd idea at first, but then again, Scientology could provide material for a shitload of wonderfully mad cartoons. :smiley:

14

Anecdotally, we walked past the Scientology store in London last Sunday to see it surrounded by cops, with riot vans parked round the street. They also had some of their bullshit dianetics machines out on tables on the sidewalk.

Sadly we didn’t know what was about to happen, so missed the protest by minutes. According to the beeb, 200 people turned up, all wearing V for Victory masks. Creepy!

15

[QUOTE=Celyn]
Well done, that guy!

Or I am being whooshed and you mean you are in fact in Tokyo rather than Florida and you were that masked man? :smiley: Bloody well done anyway, whatever.

Ought I to feel bad that I still will not really trust the cousin who left Scientology, in that it seems to me that he has retained a whole lot of the manipulating people tricks, or perhaps that is just because his mother was so pleased to see him come back again that she will tolerate much? I don’t know.

Anyway, is Scientology “big in Japan” then? Seems an odd idea at first, but then again, Scientology could provide material for a shitload of wonderfully mad cartoons. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

No, I’m afraid I’m not actually involved with the protests and deserve no internets. I do find the whole thing very entertaining though, so I follow it closely.

My guess is that they have only a small presence in Japan, but they lie about their numbers so their stats are worthless. IE: they claim 4 million members in the U.S.

16

[QUOTE=Gozu]

My question is : will this harm scientology or give it a boost?

[/QUOTE]

Persecuting religious movements rarely works. Persecution has not stopped the Tibetan Buddhists, the Falun Gong movement, paganism, Islam, early Christianity, Protestantism (Martin Luther), Baptistism, Quakerism, Unitarianism, Shiite-ism, Sunni-ism, Catholicism, Anglicism, or evangelicalism. And, for the reigning champs of being persecuted and never, ever going away, we have the Jews.

The only possible way to stop a religion is to kill all the members. And even if it could be done, I don’t think anyone really wants that.

17

I think you miss the point, appleciders. Although originally the movement was intended “for the lulz”, the main aims now are to damage Scientology’s tax structure (where applicable) and expose it for the money-making scheme it is. Many anonymous have tried directing members of CoS to FreeZone.

18

[QUOTE=Queen Bruin]
I think you miss the point, appleciders. Although originally the movement was intended “for the lulz”, the main aims now are to damage Scientology’s tax structure (where applicable) and expose it for the money-making scheme it is. Many anonymous have tried directing members of CoS to FreeZone.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I didn’t know that they were attacking the tax structure. Well, then it will certainly work. Forcing a religious group to pay taxes when other religious groups are tax-free will certainly cause the taxed group to fail. That totally worked in Massachusetts and Connecticut- when the established churches recieved taxes, the Quakers and Unitarians just folded up and disappeared. :wink:

Seriously, I kind of support some of what Anon is doing, it’s just that I don’t think it can really succeed. Weaken Scientology by eroding the tax-free status and by spreading information about the cult-like nature and hurt Scientology’s recruiting, maybe.

Still, I don’t know whether I support the removal of tax-exempt status for Scientology. Sure, you and I and the people at the top (maybe) know it’s a fraud. But there are thousands of basic Scientologists who honestly believe in it, and we don’t have the right to have the government intervene, do we?

19

[QUOTE=appleciders]

Still, I don’t know whether I support the removal of tax-exempt status for Scientology. Sure, you and I and the people at the top (maybe) know it’s a fraud. But there are thousands of basic Scientologists who honestly believe in it, and we don’t have the right to have the government intervene, do we?
[/QUOTE]

Why not? It’s a for-profit organization masquerading as a religion. If Scientology’s path to salvation (which I am sure many people DO believe in) weren’t paved by checks written by those hoping to be saved, I wouldn’t have a problem with their tax-exemption.

And considering Scientology has had no problems with having the government intervene on their behalf, I see no reason why the government shouldn’t intervene against it.

20

[QUOTE=appleciders]
Still, I don’t know whether I support the removal of tax-exempt status for Scientology. Sure, you and I and the people at the top (maybe) know it’s a fraud. But there are thousands of basic Scientologists who honestly believe in it, and we don’t have the right to have the government intervene, do we?
[/QUOTE]

There are several splinter scientologist groups that follow Hubbard’s teachings, provide the same “tech” but don’t charge money for them. They’re called Free Zoners.

Imagine a catholic church that:
-Charges you $300/year to be able to enter the church.
-Where a priest charges you $3500 for 12 hours of mandatory confessions.
-Whose missionaries have to buy a $30 gizmo for $5000 and recoup that money by receiving 15% of the money their converts spend on ridiculously expensive religious texts and audio tapes.
-That sells you pieces of the secret bible for a grand total of $100,000 and claims you need it to be a better person and attain salvation.
-That falsely claims that the freezoners’ religious materials were willfully corrupted and are impure among other things.

Do you think it should get tax exempt status? France, Germany and many others didn’t think so. Things get worse if you look more closely at how they got the tax exemption. I could go on but you can inform yourself easily if you decide to. I recommend the 1991 times magazine article which gives a good overview.