Yep. Even the most racist Americans are able to figure out that a huge proportion of the food they eat is priced as it is due to immigrant labor. And that with no immigrants, prices on nearly everything will go up.
MAGA’s dumbest know that their leaders’ cries of “they’re taking your jobs” are bullshit.
How do you get that from:
On the whole, do you think immigration is a good thing or a bad thing for this country today?
This option seems to be the only question specific to ICE and its support was very weak with Dems and Independents.
Deporting all immigrants who are living in the United States illegally back to their home country
I don’t understand your confusion.
The claim is that very few are actually against immigration control and enforcement which is the literal mission of ICE. They really are the agency that does that. Vast majorities are, I am, angry at how they are NOT doing many parts of the job (destaffing human and drug trafficking arms for example), and more by their very visible abuses, they do not like what is being enforced and how it is being enforced. The agency’s current performance is not how majorities want the job done. These majorities specifically do NOT endorse deportation of longstanding productive community members who are undocumented (here illegally). That Trump edict focus of ICE is not definitional for immigration control and enforcement.
The idea as expressed by @Sylvanz is exactly the problem, no other solution realistically on offer (or at best some hand waved mumbling about other agencies taking the jobs over, which realistically is just name changing the same jobs with lots of time and money on top), certainly no real hope of real immigration system reform, but abolish the agency that is tasked with the job anyway. @Chronos is afraid that saying we are “for immigration”, which most voters are for, is too scary to say, but that saying abolish immigration control and enforcement is a GOOD message?
I’d like to see being FOR real immigration reform, again a good start to which was almost passed during Biden’s time if not for Trump’s interference. Returning ICE to its necessary and important tasks, investigating those guilty of crimes as officers, is the easiest part of that goal but comprehensive reform is what is needed and is very achievable.
Ever heard the term “meet them where they are”? That’s the operating principle here, or should be. You’re not going to re-educate and change a lot of minds before 2028. But it’s entirely possible to figure out what about this ICE stuff will piss off otherwise conservative people who don’t much care about due process for illegal immigrants, and lean on that as a lever for fostering discontent with the current administration and ICE in particular.
The agency known as ICE is not the only way to have immigration control and enforcement.
Of course not. You could rename it The Welcome Committee or do a corporate reorg, shuffling people around, doing the same replacing some bad managers and getting rid of bad recent hires, altered focus, as you otherwise could do much more quickly and cheaply without the need to create new bills that get through both houses.
But that’s not the messaging, even if some feel the handwaved reorg is implied: it is “abolish immigration control and enforcement” Poof. All better! Job done Brownie!
The first question is asking participants if they think immigration is good or bad for a country. It’s not asking about how the US implements it. It’s not even specifying legal immigration. I don’t interpret that question as saying people support ICE or the functions of ICE. Especially given the polls earlier in this thread which do specifically ask about ICE.
In this thread there seems to be a general consensus that:
The differences are mostly:
I don’t see much of a gap in opinions beyond these. Eliminating the functions of ICE completely or having open borders would never happen so it’s not worth burning capital on it.
I concur- with a few small caveats.
Right.
cited in response to Chronos’ concern about saying we are “for immigration” - there is no problem saying that. Most American are. It was not referencing the organization ICE.
Chronos then claimed that a slogan that literally states “abolish immigration and enforcement” is much “harder to twist” because the agency whose mission is its name in his mind actually has nothing to do with immigration control and enforcement. That belief is factually untrue. Any real plan to eliminate the agency would have to have its many actual vitally important (and currently largely neglected) jobs be relocated but still done. That relocation of the agency’s functions would be cumbersome, long, and expensive.
Agree with your number points list with the proviso that “reform” while polling better than “abolish” is still not the best messaging: I’d campaign on more. Real significantly meaningful immigration reform was a vote away. It would have paired more border resources with increased legal immigration pathways. It was definitely an imperfect solution but it was a solid step. I’d hope a campaign could use that as a starting point for something better, also including the pathways to citizenship that majorities endorse. I don’t know if @Sherrerd ’s SMART Immigration is the best possible either, but it is far better, more positive, more powerful, and more ambitious than either abolish or reform …
Yet again, no, nobody is suggesting that. We are suggesting abolishing ICE. That’s the agency that used to do immigration control and enforcement, a job which is currently not being done by anyone, because ICE has been pulled off of that job to instead become state-sponsored domestic terrorists. Trump already abolished that job, and creating a new agency to do that job again is also something we need to do.
No, I’m not saying to adopt that as a slogan. I’m saying to adopt “abolish ICE” as a slogan.
I will go on to point that the OP was incorrect- Abolish ICE is NOT the official position of the Democratic party.
No, but it’s worth burning capital on making sure whatever messaging is done makes it extremely clear that neither of those are on the table. Which merely having a slogan like “Abolish ICE” doesn’t do, and in fact leaves itself open to that interpretation.
That’s the thing- you want a slogan to not just be catchy, you want it to be self-contained so to speak, and not require follow ups to be clear. That’s where “Defund the Police” tripped over its own dick.
But you can’t talk about “preserving the functions of ICE”, because the function of ICE is terrorism. What you mean is “preserving the functions that ICE is supposed to have”, but by that point, you’ve already lost the audience. You need to make a statement that you’re abolishing the terrorist group. You also need to make a statement that you support enforcement of the border laws. And you make those two statements separated, because those two statements have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.
To say that rhetorically as hyperbole is fine and good, but factually the ERO portion, that I agree is being used to terrorize and less for its necessary functions, is just one of the divisions of ICE. The rest is being kneecapped but the people still there are still doing their jobs.
Most important from my perspective is Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) - which employs over 10,000 and investigates human trafficking, narcotics and weapons smuggling, financial crimes, cybercrimes, child exploitation, intellectual property violations, commercial fraud, export violations, and identity/benefits fraud, plus national-security investigations protecting critical infrastructure …
Big problem is this division is weakened under Trump with huge staff numbers reassigned to immigration arrests.
FWIW Customs and Border Protection is actually not under ICE and abolishing ICE in reality does not do anything there. But that is lost in a slogan that is read literally as “abolish immigration and control enforcement” - that has to be explained.
Selling “Abolish ICE” is selling a limb amputation when prudent use of a scalpel and hemostat can preserve needed function and be part of improving whole body function as well.
The Trump fix to immigration - hunt down productive longstanding community members who are undocumented in the cruelest manner possible and terrorize whole cities in the process, against immigration overall except for white Afrikaners, is not what the public wants - offer them more than abolishing one function - offer them what they DO WANT - a sane smart comprehensive immigration reform package.
And argue how that approach is part of a healthy economy, part of fixing what Trump is breaking. Because the economy is what voters care most about.
Yeah, I agree. Or more specifically was swayed by your arguments early in this thread and your suggestion of “Melt ICE” as a slogan.
FWIW, I think most Dopers want to reform ICE functions regardless of whether they prefer an Abolish or Reform slogan. The first will attract more progressives, the second more Independents. It’s a reasonable point of debate which will be more effective.
I favor the reform message, partly because I think ICE abuses will not be top-of-mind in Nov 2028. However, my darkest fear is that ICE could be deployed for the upcoming midterms.
Which is why nobody is suggesting that slogan. You might as well claim that we’re calling for an end to internal combustion engines.
“ICE” is literally the acronym for “Immigration and Control Enforcement” … is really is exactly what the slogan says. All the oppo folk need to do is repeat your exact slogan using the words instead of the acronym and you are spending huge energy explaining “but that’s not we mean!”
(Or are you suggesting abolishing internal combustion engines as the ICE … as a goal I’m on board but it will take time …)
I agree, although not possible with the current administration.
My fear is that after the midterms, immigration reform could pass Congress and get vetoed by the president leaving ICE intact in both size and scope. We can’t leave a paramilitary force beholden to Pubs operating inside the US.
Customs, IIRC.
Trump could and would also veto any acts to “abolish” ICE, and it is under executive control.
Better to put GOP critters on record going against the very things majorities want and having to defend Trump’s veto. Go into the general election cycle with that fresh, containing the smart sane comprehensive immigration reform package that Trump has vetoed as part of a broader package that repairs the economy in addition to not being cruel to our friends and neighbors.