Democrats and the "I told you so's"

[black_rabbit]

@Starving Artist

One thing you hear all the time about Rebublican presidents – and this is especially true of Reagan and GWB – is that you know what they believe and where they stand. I believe this is largely the case with Republican congresssmen, as well. Republicans come into office with a certain set of moral beliefs, and they stick to them even in the face of fierce opposition and/or even though it may be politically damaging to their own future or the future of their party come election time. Democrats, on the other hand, are all over the place depending on the hot-button issue of the day and what the polls say.

You’ve got quite a lofty perspective, there, but only because your opinions are resting upon a giant pile of bullshit.

Do you remember who gave us these gems:

I’m not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say, “This is the way it’s got to be.”

Let me tell you what else I’m worried about: I’m worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place.

It’s very important to be patient with the peace process. To be diligent and patient. It’s very important not to impose a US solution.

You get one guess.

[Starving_Artist]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Were you honest, you would note that there are do-gooders on both sides of the political spectrum.

Of course there are do-gooders on both sides; it’s just that the overwhelming majority of them fall on the leftward side of the spectrum. Remember, when someone speaks of “liberals,” one is necessarily speaking in general terms. Same with conservatives, Pubbies, Dems, etc. There are always those who don’t fit in with the common perception of those groups. You in no way invalidate my comments by coming up with some sort of example of the same on the other side. Anyone can do it, and it’s an empty tactic.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Starving Artist

…I’ve done nothing of the sort. You claim I picked one news story, and blamed “liberals” for tough laws involving child molesters. Not so, bucko!..

Uhh, yes bucko. I quote,

@Starving Artist

…As an example (and just one, as there are are an almost infinitesimal number of others) of the kind of thing liberalism engenders, I give you the recent case of the woman whose baby was taken from her because the father was convicted of a sex offense twenty years ago.
Again, we have the baby being thrown out with the bath water in a misguided and heavy-handed effort to enforce a perfect world where people are forever protected against any possible harm (as long as it’s a liberal hot-button wrong, that is)…

I reread the entire thread, you picked one news story and you blamed liberals (I guess “liberals” are responsible for Megan’s Law?).

@Starving Artist

…I would also reiterate that this woman and her husband and child are not the victims of “tough laws” involving child molesters…

Wrong (unless ML isn’t tough or have any thing to do with child molesters).

@Starving Artist

…The father was not convicted of any child-related offense…

Wrong.

@Starving Artist

…But what he was convicted of was raping three adult women during a one night spree twenty years ago…

WRONG

@Starving Artist

…As vile and reprehensible as his actions were at the time, he has apparently paid his debt to society and he should be able to live a normal life from now on
as long as he behaves himself…

WRONG!

@See Footlinks

Mr. WolfHawk, formerly known as John Joseph Lentini, served a decade in prison after pleading guilty in 1983 in New York to rape, attempted rape, sodomy and attempted sodomy in a case involving two teenage girls. He is on Pennsylvania’s Megan’s Law list of sex offenders.

He plead guilty that’s important. A court can’t simply accept a guilty plea from a defendant; the judge must be convinced that the plea has a factual basis. In addition, the defendant is often required to admit, in his own words, exactly what he did. (Thank you, Bricker)

Since Mr. WolfHawk is on Megan’s List he does not get to live a normal life.
He’s on the lifetime sex offender list.

**Pennsylvania State Police Megan’s Law ****Section 42 Pa. C.S. § 9799.1 authorizes the Pennsylvania State Police to create and maintain a state registry of offenders and sexually violent predators.

Registration Details

10-Year Registration

Offenders convicted of the following offenses:

• Kidnapping, where the victim is a minor (18 Pa. C.S. § 2901);
• Luring a Child into a Motor Vehicle 18 Pa. C.S. § 2910;
• Institutional Sexual Assault 18 Pa. C.S. § 3124.2;
• Indecent Assault where the victim is under 13 years of age (18 Pa. C.S. § 3126);
• Incest, where the victim is 12 years of age or older but under 18 years of age (18 Pa. C.S. § 4302);
• Prostitution and related offenses, where the actor promotes the prostitution of a minor (18 Pa. C.S. § 5902**);
• Obscene and other sexual materials and performances, where the victim is a minor (18 Pa. C.S. § 5903[a] [3], [4], [5], or [6]);
• Sexual abuse of children (18 Pa. C.S. § 6312);
• Unlawful contact with minor (18 Pa. C.S. § 6318);
• Offenders convicted of an attempt to commit any of the offenses under 10-year registration or lifetime registration;
• Offenders convicted in jurisdictions outside the Commonwealth of an equivalent offense listed under the 10-year registration where the conviction occurred in another state, territory, Federal court, the District of Columbia, or where the offender was sentenced by court martial, or where the offender was required to register under a sexual offender statute in the jurisdiction where the offender was convicted, and the offender:
  o Resides in the Commonwealth; or
  o Is employed in the Commonwealth; or
  o Is a student in the Commonwealth.

Note: Offenders convicted in other jurisdictions are subject to a period of registration equal to that of their jurisdiction of origin. This may exceed ten years, but can be no less than ten years.

• Offenders paroled after the effective date of the statute for any of the offenses under the 10-year registration.

Lifetime Registration

Offenders convicted of the following offenses:

• Offenders with two or more convictions of any of the offenses set forth under the 10-year registration;
• Rape (18 Pa. C.S. § 3121);
• Involuntary Deviate Sexual Intercourse (18 Pa. C.S. § 3123);
• Sexual Assault (18 Pa. C.S. § 3124.1);
• Aggravated Indecent Assault (18 Pa. C.S. § 3125);
• Incest, where the victim is under 12 years of age (18 Pa. C.S. § 4302);
• Offenders designated by the court as Sexually Violent Predators;
• Offenders being released from a state or county correctional facility for any of the offenses under lifetime registration;
• Offenders convicted in jurisdictions outside the Commonwealth of an equivalent offense listed under lifetime registration where the conviction occurred in another state, territory, Federal court, the District of Columbia, or where the offender was sentenced by court martial, or where the offender was required to register under a sexual offender statute in the jurisdiction where the offender was convicted, and the offender:
  o Resides in the Commonwealth; or
  o Is employed in the Commonwealth; or
  o Is a student in the Commonwealth.
• Offenders paroled after the effective date of the statute for any of the offenses under lifetime registration.

General Registration Requirements

• Offenders must register with the Pennsylvania State Police upon release from incarceration, upon parole from a state or county correctional facility or upon the commencement of a sentence of intermediate punishment or probation.
• Offenders are required to notify the Pennsylvania State Police within 10 days of any change of residence or establishment of an additional residence(s).
• Offenders are required to notify the Pennsylvania State Police within 10 days of any change of employer or employment location.
• Offenders are required to notify the Pennsylvania State Police within 10 days of any change of institution or location at which the offender is enrolled as a student, or termination of enrollment.
• Offenders are required to notify the Pennsylvania State Police within 10 days of becoming employed or enrolled as a student if the offender has not previously provided that information to the Pennsylvania State Police.
• Offenders are required to register with the appropriate law enforcement authorities in another state within 10 days of establishing a residence in another state.
• Offenders convicted in jurisdictions outside Pennsylvania must register with the Pennsylvania State police within 10 days of establishing a residence, being employed or becoming a student in Pennsylvania.
• The 10-year registration period shall be tolled when an offender is recommitted for a parole violation or sentenced to an additional term of imprisonment. (In such cases, the Department of Corrections or county correctional facility will notify the Pennsylvania State Police of the admission of an offender.)

NOTE: Offenders previously registered remain under original registration status.**

(Sorry about feeling the need to post all of Megan’s Law, but someone seems to have a problem doing “a little investigation” on their own.)

@Starving Artist

Okay, I’ve done a little investigation on the subject of this baby being snatched from its mother due to a twenty year old sexual offense by the baby’s father. I was beginning to think that the judge must have been a liberal after all, given that there was no hue and cry from people here who researched it and were able to determine that he was a conservative after all.

BULLSHIT!!!

Now, since you obviously did not bother to find out ANY of the facts in the case, I’ll fill you in.

@See Footlinks

County officials say there is much more to the case. They told the court they’ve heard reports the WolfHawks have a history of mental illness and drug and alcohol abuse. Lawyers for the county also raised new allegations against the couple, including a doctor’s report that Melissa WolfHawk had acknowledged using cocaine and methamphetamine and working as a prostitute, and a New York parole document indicating Mr. WolfHawk sexually abused his daughter. The county has also accused Mr. WolfHawk of sexually abusing his three children.

Mr. WolfHawk disputed the accuracy of New York state parole records that indicated he had sodomized his own daughter.
“It’s not true and I’m just not that type of person,” he said.
(CMC) Nooo, he just sodomizes other people’s daughters)
Mr. WolfHawk, formerly known as John Joseph Lentini, served a decade in prison after pleading guilty in 1983 in New York to rape, attempted rape, sodomy and attempted sodomy in a case involving two teenage girls. He is on Pennsylvania’s Megan’s Law list of sex offenders.

Mr. WolfHawk said contemporary news accounts depicted his actions as being far worse than they really were.
“I was guilty of stupidity, I’m not saying I was an angel. Maybe more like a Hells Angel.”

(For the moment, lets assume these allegations are facts).
Starving Artist, do you really think, an alcoholic, speed freak, crack whore, married to a, teenage girl, sodomizing, rapist, who sodomized his own daughter, and who thinks what he did was JUST stupid, should be raising kids?

@Starving Artist

There’s a significant difference on several levels, not the least of which would be the impact upon the victims.

WTF, Would you like to explain the difference? I really got to hear this.

@Starving Artist

And thanks, by the way, for lending a flesh-and-blood example of the liberal mindset that I’ve been suggesting all through this thread. "That’s right…when it comes to sex, one crime is no different than the other and they’re all the ultimate evil…

Yeah, your right us libs are too tough on crime. 10 years for raping and sodomizing two minors is WAY too harsh. You’re right it’s not evil. I guess we shouldn’t even have laws against rape.
RAPE IS RAPE, DUMBASS AND IT PROBABLY IS THE ULTIMATE EVIL

@Starving Artist

…Rip their kids from their mommies and make it impossible for them to find housing and jobs. Perhaps even make 'em wear ankle bracelets for life… (A great way to manufacture criminals-for-life, IMO…)

your soundin kinda soft on criminals, I think we might have to send ya to Fox’s reeducation camp (Sean Hannity & Bill O’Reilly 24/7)

@Starving Artist

…Pat a kid on the rump (and don’t roll your eyes; there are people – even children themselves – being brought up on molestation charges by this very thing)…

REALLY, I’ve never heard of such things (Link ).

@Starving Artist

…Pat a kid on the rump,…or rape, terrorize and torture a grown woman, it’s all the same if sex is involved!..

Pat a grown woman on the rump,or rape, terrorize and torture a kid, it’s all the same.
NO, IT IS NOT THE SAME.
Rape, terrorize and torture a kid, or a grown woman (or man),
THAT, IS THE SAME, BUCKO. :wally

@Starving Artist

…and oh, yeah…quit being mean to those poor terrorist sympathizers and ‘freedom-fighters’ in Guantanamo."Libs! :rolleyes:

Yeah lets be nice to confessed rapists, and
torturepeoplewhomightbeinnocent,justforthefunofit.

Sadly, I already know you won’t believe any of this until you see it on Fox.Link

Cites for WolfHawk

County Threatens to Take Baby Because Dad Is a Sex Offender

http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/1005/baby_ap.html

Newsday | Long Island's & NYC's News Source

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_1unbornoct22,0,3902321.story?coll=all-newslocal-hed
http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15428374&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=6

[Merijeek]

@Starving Artist

blah blah

Come up with a definition, yet? Or are you just a female version of duffer?

-Joe

[Starving_Artist]

@Kimstu

You still haven’t come up with any actual evidence that these so-called “impassioned do-gooders” are Democrats.

In fact, if what you’re talking about is the case in Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania, the people of Schuylkill County are represented in state and county government mostly by Republicans.

The fact that the county is represented by Republicans really has no merit in this instance. It is the child welfare agency that seized this child, and I would be willing to be it is peopled overwhelmingly by leftists. The reason is that people drawn to such work tend to be “impassioned do-gooders”, and as we’ve already established , most of these fall on the left side of the political spectrum.

@Kimstu

And Judge Charles Miller, who prohibited visitation by the father in this case, is apparently a Republican, going by this 2001 reference to him:

Perhaps you missed my retraction regarding the judge above. Subsequent research by me showed that he did not rule the child could be taken from his mother as I previously thought based on what I’d read, he merely allowed the child welfare agency to continue to hold the child in foster care until a hearing could be held on the merits of the agency’s case.

@Kimstu

Whether you personally do or don’t have doubt about something doesn’t constitute actual evidence. So far, you haven’t provided a shred of actual evidence…

I haven’t provided any evidence because it is neither necessary nor possible to provide evidence of an opinion. You guys slay me with your demands of “proof” and “evidence.”

In the first place, even if it were possible to provide it all you would do is argue with it and dispute it…and in the second place, what I said is my opinion… which is based on years of observation of liberal behavior. How does one cite independent proof of an observation? Of an opinion? Like it or not, when it comes to an opinion or observation, one’s post truly is one’s cite. The proof that my opinion is what I say it is, is simply the fact that I say it is.

You wanted to know why “liberal” is a dirty word in this country. I provided an example – and just one example, by the way – of the kind of thing that seems to occur regularly in this country as a result of liberal activism.

Now much to the exasperation of yourself and others here, I still contend that the fact that so much of this type of thing over the last forty or fifty years can be laid at the feet of liberal activism, that it really isn’t germane at this point whether liberalism is in fact to blame in this particular instance, although I continue to believe it does. It’s the fact that liberalism, due to its own history in this country, is perceived in such a way that such an idiotic and heavy-handed intrusion on the very basic and heretofore largely sancrosanct human right…that of almost absolute parental rights to their own children…pretty much automatically appears to be the work of the liberal side of the spectrum.

[crowmanyclouds]

Opinions…aren’t they kinda like assholes?

Ya either got one, or ya are one.

[Starving_Artist]

crowmanyclouds, occasionally in the course of arguments around here I’m forced to admit I’m wrong about something, and based upon the excellent information you provided in your last post, I have no reasonable choice but to acknowledge that the actions taken by the child welfare agency in this case was the correct one.

Although I disagree quite a bit with some of the things you say, now is not the time to argue about them.

I congratulate you for an excellent post and for an excellent job in ferreting out the information. Several online searches I made revealed none of that. Clearly, I could have done a better job in researching the subject myself once I was challenged on it.

In this case, the child welfare workers are clearly doing the right thing.

Regards,
SA

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

@Starving Artist

crowmanyclouds, occasionally in the course of arguments around here I’m forced to admit I’m wrong about something, and based upon the excellent information you provided in your last post, I have no reasonable choice but to acknowledge that the actions taken by the child welfare agency in this case was the correct one.

[snip]

In this case, the child welfare workers are clearly doing the right thing.

Here’s the thing, SA – until someone provided an in-depth look at this case, you’d grabbed a superficial impression and filed it under “typical liberal do-gooders” based on your preconceptions of what liberals think and do. How many other observations you’ve made over the years, that you believe illustrate the evils of liberalism, would similarly fail to support your simplistic assumptions if you examined them in greater depth?

I have to say to you, in this thread you’ve fallen back into your bad old habit of de haut en bas hectoring, and ended up making yourself look foolish. There certainly are examples to be found of both liberal and conservative overreaching, but you’ve provided no evidence that the left is far more prone to that than the right, other than your subjective impressions – and now we’ve seen how tenuous is the support for those impressions. Look beyond the surface of things and you’ll find a far more complex and nuanced reality than the simple sound-bite “Liberals are this!” caricatures you have such a distressing weakness for.

Other than that, how ya doing?

[Starving_Artist]

@EddyTeddyFreddy

Here’s the thing, SA – until someone provided an in-depth look at this case, you’d grabbed a superficial impression and filed it under “typical liberal do-gooders” based on your preconceptions of what liberals think and do. How many other observations you’ve made over the years, that you believe illustrate the evils of liberalism, would similarly fail to support your simplistic assumptions if you examined them in greater depth?

It’s hard to say. I’ve seen far too many of the things I hold dear fall by the wayside due either to liberal influence or due to a thoroughly predictable by-product of that influence whose inevitability was denied by the left at the time and later held to be of no importance anyway once it did indeed come to pass.

@EddyTeddyFreddy

I have to say to you, in this thread you’ve fallen back into your bad old habit of de haut en bas hectoring, and ended up making yourself look foolish.

Yeah, I know. I was aware of it myself. It’s the old “get in my face and I’ll get right back atcha…and then some” syndrome that I’ve always had a propensity for.

@EddyTeddyFreddy

Other than that, how ya doing?

I’m doing just fine, thanks. I hope you are, as well. I think of you often.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Starving Artist

Of course there are do-gooders on both sides; it’s just that the overwhelming majority of them fall on the leftward side of the spectrum. Remember, when someone speaks of “liberals,” one is necessarily speaking in general terms. Same with conservatives, Pubbies, Dems, etc. There are always those who don’t fit in with the common perception of those groups. You in no way invalidate my comments by coming up with some sort of example of the same on the other side. Anyone can do it, and it’s an empty tactic.

Another empty tactic is to make broad generalizations without offering evidence to support them. Your claim that the overwhelming majority of dogooders are liberals is an example of this sort of empty tactic. I think you don’t realize how insulting it is.

Daniel

[bizzwire]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Another empty tactic is to make broad generalizations without offering evidence to support them. Your claim that the overwhelming majority of dogooders are liberals is an example of this sort of empty tactic. I think you don’t realize how insulting it is.

Daniel

Personally, I’m not insulted when characterized as someone who wants to do good. It’s truly sad when being broad-minded, tolerant and generous (“liberal”) or being someone who wants to do good (“do-gooder”) are considered to be bad things by some people.

[zenith]

Interesting that people here think that such things as concern for the environment and for worker safety are exclusively Democrat positions when both the EPA and OSHA came to pass when Republcan Nixon was President.

Back during the time of the Watergate Scandal, I got caught up in the all-pervasive Nixon-hatred thing, but I find ,in retrospect, that despite his being paranoid and his having let his paranoia get the best of his judgement Nixon was one of the best things to happen to the blue-collar worker in the last half of the 20th Century.

Big Business toady ( the Awwl Bidness, in particular), Lyndon Johnson didn’t give a rat’s ass about safety or the environment. His Great Society carefully avoided pissing off long-time Senatorial and Presidential campaign contributors.

Nixon didn’t like the elder Bush-he thought he was an effete little preppy who spent too much time playing “speed golf” and too little time on the economic concerns of the masses - and were he alive today would absolutely hate Bush, Jr.

Nixon may have been a creepy little paranoid, but he was OUR (the American Working Class’) creepy little paranoid. And I forgive him his paranoia. Turns out that the media and politcal establishments WERE really out to get him.

[Kimstu]

By the way, here’s some fuller information on the case:

County officials argued during the federal court hearings that they had a doctor’s report saying that Ms. WolfHawk had used drugs; she denies that, saying there is no evidence in any of her medical records and that she will undergo screening to prove she is clean.

But officials say that their primary concern is the record of her husband, DaiShin John WolfHawk, although there is no evidence, they say, that he has abused children recently.

“He has a history of violent sexual abuse against kids,” said Karen Rismiller, a lawyer for Schuylkill County Children and Youth Services. “Just because he served time doesn’t allow someone to be around children. He’s a sex offender registered in Pennsylvania, New York, and Maryland.” […]

Ms. WolfHawk had a son by a previous marriage, and Schuylkill County officials moved to take custody of him two weeks after the WolfHawks married, her lawyer said. The boy, now 8, remains in foster care. She became pregnant by Mr. WolfHawk and moved to nearby Lancaster County in 2003, because, a caseworker testified in federal court, she feared that Schuylkill County would take the child. Schuylkill County alerted Lancaster County, whose officials found her living in Schenectady, N.Y., and took the child back to Pennsylvania. By that time, a couple Ms. WolfHawk had lived with briefly in Maryland had filed for custody of the child, arguing that Mr. WolfHawk was unfit. That couple now has custody of the child.

In federal court hearings, county officials alleged that besides the two girls he was convicted of raping, Mr. WolfHawk had abused his daughter, who is now in her 30’s, an accusation he denied.

@Starving Artist

You wanted to know why “liberal” is a dirty word in this country. I provided an example – and just one example, by the way – of the kind of thing that seems to occur regularly in this country as a result of liberal activism. […]

crowmanyclouds, occasionally in the course of arguments around here I’m forced to admit I’m wrong about something, and based upon the excellent information you provided in your last post, I have no reasonable choice but to acknowledge that the actions taken by the child welfare agency in this case was the correct one. […]

In this case, the child welfare workers are clearly doing the right thing.

In other words, your complaint about “impassioned do-gooder” “liberal activism” was completely pulled out of your ass, and now you have to eat it.

This is why it’s advisable to have some actual evidence to back up your assertions before you make them.

As a matter of fact, this is exactly why “liberal” has become a dirty word in this country: because irresponsible, ill-informed conservatives keep smearing liberals with accusations that they can’t back up with facts.

@Starving Artist

I’ve seen far too many of the things I hold dear fall by the wayside due either to liberal influence or due to a thoroughly predictable by-product of that influence

And off you go again, undaunted by your previous embarrassment, making unsupported assertions about how it’s all the liberals’ fault. Given your obvious knee-jerk anti-liberal biases and your indifference to factual evidence, I don’t see how you can expect anybody to take any of your claims seriously.

[ElvisL1ves]

@bizzwire

It’s truly sad when being broad-minded, tolerant and generous (“liberal”) or being someone who wants to do good (“do-gooder”) are considered to be bad things by some people.

Preach it. Right up among the top Things That I Hate To Hear is “Well, those people do *mean * well, but they’re just unrealistic,” preceding some excuse for not doing anything about the problem at hand at all. Um, you got any better ideas that *do * meet your standard of realism, friends? Or are you just rationalizing selfishness and laziness?

[Merijeek]

@bizzwire

Personally, I’m not insulted when characterized as someone who wants to do good. It’s truly sad when being broad-minded, tolerant and generous (“liberal”) or being someone who wants to do good (“do-gooder”) are considered to be bad things by some people.

Sure, but both those things generally end up causing taxes to be raised.

As such, they’re slightly more evil than pederasty.

So, what’s a person to do?

-Joe

[crowmanyclouds]

Kimstu have you tried to find any of the details of Mr. WolfHawk’s conviction?
My google-fu wasn’t strong enough!

[SteveG1]

Ummm, OK. So the Republicans control the White House and Congress, but it’s the Democrats’ fault that everything went down the shitter? What a stupid frucking argument. Clean up your own party and then you can talk about the Dems.

[SteveG1]

@Ravenman

But wait – you probably think that only liberal draft dodgers are cowards – so perhaps there’s a Republican spin term that describes conservatives who are too afraid or too lazy to do something. The term escapes me, so I guess I’ll have to go back and see how the RNC described Dick Cheney’s and Rush Limbaugh’s military service records, and then use that word to describe your ability to defend your views.

The correct term is Chicken Hawk.

[Syntropy]

@Merijeek

Sure, but both those things generally end up causing taxes to be raised.

As such, they’re slightly more evil than pederasty.

So, what’s a person to do?

-Joe

Well, apparently the alternative is to put the country into several trillion dollars worth of debt. It’s either one or the other. So, you still have your money. It just isn’t worth anything. Oh, and your police force is smaller, not as many firefighters, yada yada.

[bizzwire]

@Merijeek

Sure, but both those things generally end up causing taxes to be raised.

As such, they’re slightly more evil than pederasty.

So, what’s a person to do?

-Joe

Go to war with Oceania?