The NYT article argues against stereotyping Trump voters as bigots or morons. It does not argue for Democrats to change their political positions to appease Trump voters. Nor does it argue against demeaning Trump himself.
~Max
So what? Even assuming it’s going to survive at all - later term abortion usually means a serious medical issue - it’s just a thing, not a person. And even a full fledged person doesn’t have the right to hijack the body of anyone else, I couldn’t legally waylay somebody and steal their kidney just because I needed it.
And the point of the “anti abortion” movement isn’t to save the fetus, it’s to torment and kill women. So any such laws are written with that in mind. They’ll force a woman to bear a dead baby or die of a miscarriage, because that hurts her and that’s the point. The only point.
Well I’m not sure the point you were trying to put to me in post 51 then, because no-one is trying to infiltrate MAGA; it’s a suggestion by the OP here.
But in terms of the point about stereotyping people as bigots, here are the issues I have with that:
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It’s not stereotyping if it’s accurate. If someone seems to be gleefully hating on some group, I’m not going to avoid the word bigot to save their feelings. That said, I of course appreciate that pointing out that someone is a racist / sexist etc is never a debate-winning tactic, it’s usually the end of a frustrating interaction. Which brings me to point 2:
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To what extent does this even happen? RW rhetoric likes to use this idea of an elitist left that looks down on them, so happily seize on things like the “semi-fascist” comment, even as they very frequently just call democrats fascists, as well as communists, pedophiles, demons etc.
I can’t remember if it was in this thread or a parallel one, but someone cited a conservative article about how someone was being labelled a “terrorist” just for his beliefs about abortion. Except, if you follow the cites in the article*, actually it was one person saying that doxxing the clinic staff was a form of stochastic terrorism, they were not actually labelling him a terrorist. I know, it might seem a small distinction but it was calling out the action, not trying to shut him down with name-calling.
* Big mistake there by the article’s author in including links. What he should have done is just make vague allusions to the crazy left, who think there are 57 genders etc, and just know that his audience will never look for the source because it’s something they want to believe.
A lot of people, including most of the 43% of Hispanic citizens that voted for Trump, would vehemently disagree with you that the fetus is “just a thing”, so you’re on the losing side. According to a lot of people, abortion issue is one of the major factors that Hispanics are trending to the Republican side.
So a fetus just randomly hijacks a body? Wow. That’s some crazy science. Who knew.
What does have to do with anything? Majority has nothing to do with what is moral or scientifically accurate. OTTOMH Dredd Scott’s case went to the Supreme Court. He lost
The point is that, at least judging by the last election , which chose a guy that campaigned as a pro life supporter, most people disagree with the poster. His offhand attitude about “it’s just a thing “ is the sort of thing that has alienated a lot of people, so that’s part of the problem, especially if you don’t even understand that fact or don’t care about that fact.
Trump is a hate filled moron. The official televion ads he endorsed always dripped with bigotry- transphobia, hatred of immigrants, hatred of brown people etc.
The average Hispanic voter is both Catholic and conservative. They are pro life, anti LGBTQ, and want traditional family roles (Dad rules the house. Mom stays home, cooks, cleans, and raises the kids. The kids obey the parents and tradition).
They also foolishly believe the leopard will not eat their faces.They believe Trump will only go after ‘illegals’ who are violent criminals, or that they (despite being Hispanic} will not have any problems living in Trump’s America.
My source for alll this is a woman from Panama. I have known her for about thirty years now. She was born in Panama. She came here (through legal means- just in case it matters) as child. She speaks fluent Spanish. She is connected to the Hispanic/Latino community in Philly. She is not Catholic. She is not conservative. She and her husband are left wing liberals like me.
His attitude has nothing to do with the real problem. Trump and his party spread distortions and outright lies. His followers accepted them without question. Or do you claim Haitians are actually eating cats and dogs?
It has nothing to do with “alienating people”. They were fed hatred and lies. They embraced both.
In fact that seems to have happened with an ex-buddy of mine. Fairly liberal, but liked guns. Okay, that is not rare. There was a talk radio show- Conservative talk radio- but it had a segment on guns and gun laws. He listened and called in. They invited him on the show. Then he became a regular for a short spot once a week or so on gun news. But he was listening to the propaganda. Next thing you know he was calling Obama the “muslim in-chief” and had gone full MAGA.
It is very easy to get sucked in. Some of these people are experts at manipulating the facts and your thoughts.
Apparently a great number of voters would disagree with you. To ignore or deny it doesn’t seem to be working out well.
You mean the same voters who embraced hatred and lies?
The reality, which you are willfully denying and ignoring, is that Trump voters knew next to nothing about the Democratic party’s actual history and positions. Trump and the rest fed them distortions and ourtight lies. They did not question these, do any research, or bother to apply critical thinking skills.
Again, are Hatians actually eating cats?
I mean the same voters that elected your president.
I am betting you don’t like that fact, though fact indeed it is, so perhaps a change of attitude may help alleviate that, because, as noted, your present mindset and attitude isn’t producing that which pleases you.
That is neither a yes or a no.
I have been quite vocal at my hatred for Trump (since at least his nomination as the Republican candidate last election) and my current state of panic now that his second term has begun. I have never attempted to conceal, let alone deny this. Trump is a hate filled greedy toddler.
A quick look reveals you joined in March of last year. How exactly have you not seen any of my very many posts on this? You said
From that, I can only conclude you have not seen any of my posts on Trump. How exactly did you manage to miss them?
That Trump actually won the popular vote this time, rather than just the electoral vote, is a fact. I do not deny it. I am not happy about it. But that is verifiably what happened.
Again, my attitude is not the problem. My attitude is a result of people voting for Trump. It is not the cause of them voting for Trump.
Again, Trump voters were fed lies and hatred. They accepted both.
For the third time- Are Haitans eating dogs and cats?
My present mindset is based not just on opinions, but on verifiable facts and evidence.
A comedian at a Republican event called Puerto Rico “A floating island of garbage.” Some Republican officials denounced both the joke and the comedian. Trump made no comment. Vance claimed that he could not comment as he had not seen the video. He did say (not an exact quote) ‘But, sometimes humor is offensive and we should just get over it,’ This was a wonderful combination of lying and cowardice. Vance was the vice presidential candidate of a major political party. That means he has a staff. Part of that staff’s job is to notify him about certain things, discuss what position he should take, and help right a speech or answers about it. Vance could have Googled the clip himself and watched it. Any member of his staff could have shown it to him. Any of the reporters at his press conference could have shown it to him. He chose not to watch it in order to avoid having to take a side. He could say it was bigotry, and risk losing the bigot vote. He could defend it, and risk losing Puerto Rican and possibly other Hispanic voters. He chose to not watch the video and not take a side.
Remember when Neo Nazi protesters violently clashed with counter protesters? What did Trump say? Did he condemn bigotry in general? Did he at least condemn Neo Nazis specifically? No, he said “Good people on both sides”
Are you unaware of all the attacks and smears (generally not based in facts of any kind) that Trump and his people made during the campaign?
I freely admit, Biden’s performance in that debate was disastrous. Wisely feeling that keeping Trump out of the White House was more important than personal victory, he stepped down as the Democratic candidate. Other than that debate, what is the name “Sleepy Joe” based on?
Of course; mainstream Hispanic culture is notoriously macho and misogynist. The point is to hurt and oppress women; they know that will be the result, so they support it. Women will suffer and die, and that’s exactly what those voters want.
Do you care at all how you won, or is winning the most important thing?
Except in real life, the present situation is the result of decades of the Democrats trying to bend over backwards to be conciliatory toward the Right and avoid calling them out on how awful they are. Maybe if they’d been willing to be harsher starting thirty, forty years ago instead of constantly sucking up and pandering they wouldn’t be in their present disastrous position; all their sucking up has done is make them look weak to their enemies and treacherous to their base.
They should have admitted that the Republicans are amoral, predatory bigoted and irrational long ago. Stopped all those fruitless attempts at appealing to the nonexistent morals and empathy of the Right, stopped trying to reason with the unreasonable, stopped trying to be “bipartisan” with people who regard cooperation as weakness.
Not in the slightest.
Where can I vote for post of the month? Dr deth totally nailed it with that insightful rebuttal!
Moderating:
This is an unacceptable personal attack. However, since the author of the post recognized the error their ways, flagged the post themselves and asked that it be deleted (something we don’t do), I’ll just say I wish more people noticed when they overstep. Thanks for that.
The problem is, and will always be, to remain true to liberal ideas we can’t play as dirty as them. You can’t outdebate lies without real time fact checking. Given the state of the world and social media technology, there should have been updated laws and standards for those running for office - especially president.
When your opponent is appealing to the lowest common denominator with lies and conspiracies, there’s virtually nothing an honest candidate can do to win. Lying to the public by those running for office should be illegal. Is that asking too much? In a regular court case, an ordinary citizen can be jailed for lying on the stand. This isn’t rocket science.
We have called him out on every transgression and MAGAs just print Tshirts saying I’ll vote for the felon anyway. They pride themselves on their ignorance. You can’t stop them at this level. The system needs to be changed to keep criminals from running in the first place.
If you stop and think about it, it’s crazy that there are no standards that must be met to be president (excepting being a natural citizen of a certain age). Fuck, I have to pass a test just to drive a car!
The other thing that hasn’t helped is the lack of the media calling this horseshit out. Trump’s outlandish behavior might get a slight mention online or print media but with rank and file newscasters on TV (where I’m guessing mom and pop get their information) it’s virtually non-existent. Where is the outrage?