In this thread, I argued that the right’s pro-life stance accomplishes several things, all of them bad for the left.
It rallies the religious right, because they have been taught that abortion is evil and combatting that evil is their way to be Good;
It ties up the left feminists into a debate that makes them look bad (“What, you women like having abortions, or something, that you fight for the issue so much?” ) The abortion debate is not a sympathetic sounding one. ( I know why it needs to be held, but I’m describing how it looks from the outside)
It draws attention away from the economic fight that would really improve the financial situation of many people, like fair wages, fair working rights, etc. These issues would rally a much, much larger voter base.
Most importantly: the fight is no longer necessary. Pro-choice won. Or rather: the Internet made pro-choice win, no matter how bad its advocates fought the battle. And whatever the Supreme Court decides, overturning Roe-Wade or not, making it harder to get family planning, it is of little consequence. The free market won the pro-choice fight for us.
Yes. I suggested in my last thread that family planning through Internet could help. I thought such help did not exist yet, but it turns out it already exist. The organisation Women on Waves offers consultation through the Internet, and offers help to fill prescriptions that end an early pregnancy, but are sold for other purposes. Here’s their website.
So…the smart thing for women to do, is to stock up on such a pill ( a morning after pill or an pregnancy ending pill) in case they or a loved one ever needs it.
And to leave the issue of abortion alone in their campaign. And to go for the stuff that still needs to be fought for: social equality, reducing extreme wealth differences, good public services, you name it. But stop making an issue of abortion rights.
Please re-read my OP. My point is, that it no longer matters what happens politically, at the state level or at the national level.
A state could outlaw abortion outright, stop all funding to Planned Parenthood, and yet… all women could get family planning help online, from the safety of their home computers and protected by the right to privacy of their mail. Even consultations with a doctor can be done online, by webcam.
To my knowledge, the Left is fine with the law as it stands. What new legislation is there being proposed by the Left in this field? So far as I’m aware, all the activism in on the Right.
(And it should be noted that 60% of the country is pro-choice. It’s really the Republicans hurting themselves here. And I personally doubt the conviction of most Republican politicians on this point, beyond using it to chain the fundies in to voting for them.)
Good point, Sage Rat. Most of the activism is on the right, intended perhaps, as you say, to “chain in the fundies”.
What if the Dems called the bluff on this attempt? What if they said to the fundies: there’s no fight here anymore. Whatever your efforts, you can’t stop the US mail and the Internet.
Wise masters of martial arts say: if you stop fighting, your opponent will stop fighting too. Sometimes a fight can be won that way, in a larger sense of winning.
What if the Dems made the pro-choice fight… less vocal and more administrative?
The biggest success the pro-life side had recently, was to impose administrative demands on Planned Parenthood clinics that they should be held to the standards of a “hospital”. That sounds innocent, untill you realise that such standards demand corridors where to guerneys can pass each other. If the Planned Parenthood clinic doesn’t spend money on such spurious demands, the clinic can be legally closed. The War on Planned Parenthood – Rolling Stone That is the kind of sneaky fight the pro-lifers wage, and that fight should be countered in the same vein. (Something with an appeal to combatting unneccesary govenrment intervention and cutting costs for the tax-payer, I propose).
But no more vocal demonstrations about pro-choice perse. Treat the right to birth control (via internet) as a done deal. Because it is.
Keep this particular fight out of the news. Find new issues on which the country is less divided. Fight not each other, but the problems.
Uh, medical abortion isn’t the only kind of abortion. If a woman finds out too late that her pregnancy is a danger to her or the fetus isn’t viable, she may need a surgical abortion. If she’s in a state where there are no clinics, or maybe just one, and it’s hundreds of miles away, and she has to make two trips and have a waiting period, and listen to the doctor give her some incorrect information, and watch the fetal heartbeat, and get a transvaginal ultrasound, and fight her way through protestors, I think someone should look out for her rights.
I think Republicans should leave the issue of gun control. It really has already been won, with multiple Supreme Court victories guaranteeing a personal right to bear arms and overturning local laws. Most people want stricter controls than the Republican party, and all it does is fire up Democrats to come out and vote. Plus the semi-monthly mass shootings keep making them look bad.
Until delivering such gets made illegal. Which would be the next logical play.
You seem to be treating the US Mail and the Internet as some sort of ‘beyond control’ sort of thing. But neither of them are. There’s ample precedent for the illegality of shipping things through the mail.
Remember, too, that these are the same impulses that led, at one time, for it to be illegal to cross state lines for ‘immoral purposes’. Given a chance to control and regulate women’s sexuality, they will.
Honestly, I get where they’re coming from. If one accepts the postulate that an embryo is a child and fully human, then abortion is killing a child and that’s horrible. But if they were really concerned about lowering the number of abortions, they’d be handing out condoms to every boy and girl in middle and high school instead of advocating abstinence only sex education.
Correct. They may try to outlaw it. But that will only fuel a black market. Many drugs are currently illegal to ship online, such as (counterfeit or prescriptionless) Ritalin, Viagra, or Xanax. How big is the illegal market by US mail for that stuff? Huge. Unstoppable.
Rittersport, yes, later abortions remain a problem. And how late are we talking?
The majority of abortions are done before 8 weeks, so well before a fetal heartbeat develops. Chemical abortion works then just as well. https://www.mdedge.com/obgyn/article/153059/practice-management/two-thirds-abortions-occur-8-weeks-gestation
Still, I think if the morning after pill and medication to end a pregnancy up untill 8 weeks are more easily available, the biggest part of the problem is helped.
Wesley Clark, yes, but my point is that the fight against misogyny is best waged in new battles. Democrats could focus on equal pay for women. Not just on demanding it, but on enforcing it, lobbying for it. On good maternal or parental leave. Democrats could adress any of the subtler issues that hold women back, ecomomically because it all starts there. Some men want to tell women what to do with their bodies, yes, but they fight a losing battle; the men who force women what to do with their time, their lives, by offering shitty pay for long hours, are far more insidious and dangerous.
Republicans would come up with another misogynist hot button that would rile up their vile, women hating base. Misogyny gets them votes - they won’t give it up.
The OP is incredibly simplistic. Just stop talking about abortion cuz…internet? Just dismissing the struggle that many, many women go through is misogynistic in its own right. Hey there women, just be quiet about stuff that is important to you so we can get to what is *really *important.:mad:
How are women in anti-abortion states supposed to learn about this if you want people to shut up about abortion? What if you’re 15 and your parents will open your mail? What about issues such as “family planning clinics” that are legally allowed to string women along while feeding them anti-abortion propaganda, and not telling them they don’t actually offer abortions?
Yours seems like a view based on not understanding that even if you are correct and solutions exist, they are worth nothing if information about those solutions aren’t getting to those who need it.
It’s not enough that it’s there to be googled. Women in need might not be able to sift through the google results and find the relevant information or they might even not have easy access to the internet. For it to be a real solution it needs to be information that everyone has before they even get pregnant, and that is definitely not the case today.
Are you aware that there are parts of the US without adequate internet? That while the majority of homes have computers, there are about 15% who do not. These are the poorest homes, the people who don’t have credit cards to send $100 over the internet, who don’t live close to a library that offers computer access, and who have probably never heard of Women on Waves, because they don’t have internet access.
I get spam for online Ritalin, etc., all the time. How many of those are legit? I’m guessing close to zero. When you order those pills, they are likely something else or just a sugar pill. Or, you send them your money and get nothing back.
So, your solution is to go to the black market for chemical abortions and the back alley for surgical abortions. I think that’s a fantastic idea! :rolleyes:
It’s certainly possible for problems to show up in a pregnancy past 8 weeks. I mean seriously, WTF? My guess, and I have no data, is that chemical abortions are largely voluntary and surgical abortions are largely due to dangers to the woman and deformities and other health issues in the fetus. So, what’s your solution to those abortions?
Man, is this ever true. I have daughters and other child bearing-aged relatives. If any of them wanted to terminate a pregnancy, I have no doubt that we’d be able to get it done regardless of the local legality. We’re middle class or upper middle class, so no issue at all.
Now, if we were living paycheck to paycheck, it’s a different story.
While I agree with the OP, it would be impossible for the Democrats, because they have to respond with something when the Republicans propose a law that would curtail abortion or something. Democrats could avoid bringing up the topic of abortion voluntarily, but if the Republicans raise the issue, they’d have to do or say something in response, otherwise their Democratic voters would decry their silence or inaction.