Something else that I think people tend to overlook is that the vast majority of the places where these sorts of injustices occur are in Islamic theocracies. In other words, such activities are state-sponsored. You don’t see this type of thing happening in democracies, where rule of law trumps any religion, because it would be punished severely. Yet another reason why immigration fears are generally unfounded.
Democracies like Erdogon’s Turkey?
N.B.: Winners are not necessarily worthy or admirable because they are winners. Losers are not necessarily contemptible because they are losers.
This is something all Americans in particular need to learn; we have a regrettable, deep-seated cultural tendency to equate success with virtue, and it ain’t.
Er, that’s not what you said. You said Muslim Syrian refugees weren’t fleeing religious persecution. They are, and being displaced is being displaced, whether you end up in Germany, Iran, or Timbuktu.
And are you seriously claiming that Christians - the largest religious group in the world - have few places to go where there are other Christians?
I would urge Syrian refugees to avoid Saudi Arabia if at all possible, that state’s barbaric treatment of foreign residents is well documented, and fleeing the totalitarian conditions of ISIS territory for the totalitarian conditions of Saudi Arabia is a lateral move at best.
That said, Saudi Arabia has taken in some number (between the thousands and the hundreds of thousands, depending on the source) of Syrians…but as visitors or guest workers, not refugees. These are the only types of visa available, as Saudi Arabia is not signatory to the UN Refugee Convention (circling back to my main point that the government of Saudi Arabia is terrible).
not in the vicinity of their original home, I probably shoulda added that. The Middle East is not a good place for Christians.
so you’re implying that there is no virtue to the fact Jews believe in hard work and going to good schools, and have done so since the days of quotas meant to keep Jews out? Or that Jews often become doctors, lawyers, bankers, engineers, etc in disproportionate number? Plus they don’t commit terrorist evil jihad nor apologize for such things. That’s called virtuous winning.
Said was never revered among the Palestiniand or even known by most. He was revered by leftists in the West but had little if an influence amongst the Palestinians. Also Husseini was put in power by the British and would eventually become revered by most Palestinians after murdering most of his rivals, but he was hardly “the voice of the Palestinians” at that time.
No, he’s saying success doesn’t automatically equal virtue in all instances.
This is a very odd response to him saying he was defending Jews because he saw them as a group who had succeeded despite severe adversity.
Are you saying you object to the idea of Jews being admirable or think that we should look down on them or that they only “succeeded” by being somehow or other underhanded?
If so, could you elaborate.
Thanks in advance.
I don’t recall saying all places.
What majority-Muslim democracies can serve as proud examples of being progressive paragons of human rights? I can’t think of any.
Considering that Muslim democracies are a very small percentage of world democracies, I don’t see your point. Name me democracies where Muslims are not a majority that condone stoning adulterers and jailing rape victims solely because they’re women.
I think that kind of is my point. I don’t really want Muslims becoming a large percentage of the electorate. We are a long way from that now, but who knows.
How enlightened of you.
There’s 51 Muslim majority countries (according to Wikipedia’s list), and only two, Tunisia and Senegal are rated “free” by Freedom House; that’s 4%. And even then, Tunisia has only been ranked “free” in 2015 and 2016, Senegal has wavered between “free” and “partly free” since 2003. Pathetic!
Yes, I would say that’s precisely what it is. It is my embrace of progressive Enlightenment values that informs and motivates my stance.
Look, there are plenty of people who hate Muslims because they themselves are Christian, because they dislike people with brown skin or foreign accents, etc. That is not my deal. A brown-skinned former Muslim who is brave enough to speak up for atheism is a way better person in my book then someone who looks like they could be my brother but who spouts a lot of religious mumbo-jumbo.
And in fact, I should note that I would be happy for our country to admit and embrace all of those who have left the Muslim faith. Such people are in danger in the Muslim world, and we owe it to them to provide them sanctuary. We do not owe adherents the same courtesy, and in fact the apostates we take in as refugees will be safer if we don’t admit religious Muslims.
It’s evident the main thing keeping you voting from Donald Trump or “Drumpf” as you prefer to virtue signal, has nothing to do the actually objectionable authoritarian and demagogic policies he champions. Instead your opposition to him is driven by tribalistic motivations-you don’t like the fact that Trump’s rhetoric is an appeal to the redneck untermenschen and that he doesn’t give a damn about virtue signalling to the bourgeois. If he ran as a Democrat and adopted the language of Whiggish triumphalism rather then of working-class anger even as he continued to advocate for a Muslim ban, you’d have no trouble voting for him.
That’s a pretty restrictive set of criteria. If we broaden it out, we might notice that Russian and some of the former USSR states like Georgia - which are technically democracies - have been happily persecuting gays and some other minority groups - including mobs stoning people. Sure, the stonings aren’t “legal” but when the head of the church is promoting such persecution it’s a very fine distinction. And various African countries aren’t much better.
Also, it’s worth noting that a lot of the anti-gay bigotry in Russia and Africa is beingactively supported by US Evangelical Christian groups. I suppose trying to get other countries to implement draconian anti-gay laws (including the death penalty) isn’t technically “supporting terrorism” but as I said, it’s a fine distinction.
you ever think that people have other problems with Trump aside from him re. Muslims? His tariffs and trade wars? His suing the media? Deporting 12 million Mexican immigrants who are only doing the equivalent of stealing a loaf of bread for a starving family, and at a 100 billion dollar cost too? His isolationism and love of Putin? There are people who honor American military and economic leadership in the world that are horrified more of those things than Trump regarding Muslims.
Also, Trump might be worse for Israel than Obama, given his isolationism and his declared “neutrality.”
Um, no.
As someone upthread (or maybe in another thread?) so colorfully put it, if you throw shit in every direction, some of it will land in the toilet. Virtually everything else about Drumpf is odious, laughable, and deranged. Start with all other issues aside from Muslim immigration. It’s hard to know what he actually stands for, but if we take him at his word on the Mexican wall and mass deportations, that’s atrocious morally, logistically, and economically. His rhetoric on trade, debt, taxes, and other economic matters (arguing for the gold standard, FFS) and his unironic plan to make up for the giant budget shortfall by cutting “waste, fraud, and abuse” are appalling and risible.
His instincts on foreign and military policy are, as Hillary aptly laid out, dangerous in their naivete.
And his reflexive fascist tendencies (most recently recalling the WaPo’s press credentials) are absolutely alarming. You style yourself as having made some kind of study of me and my worldview, but you don’t get me at all if you think I have any truck with leaders like that. Leaving American politics aside, for instance, I detest those like Erdoğan and Putin who preside over putative democracies but squash dissent, especially from the news media.
Yes: I also find his crass classlessness repugnant. But I’m not buying into the surfeit of credit you imply he should be given as someone who is only marketing himself to the “untermenschen”. He is cringe-inducingly lowbrow to the core. He compounds that cringe factor by not even truly being the tough-as-nails brawler he wants everyone to think he is: in fact, he’s as insecure and thin-skinned a person as you will ever meet, and he’s terrible at hiding this fact to anyone with an ounce of perspicacity.
And this is before we get into how difficult he is just to look at. (And I’ll admit, he actually was a good looking guy in his salad days.) Alexandra Petri aptly described him as
So if the assertion is that I’d support him if he were different in every possible way except for his policies on Muslim immigration, then…okay, sure. :rolleyes: