Yep. We’re on the same page now. I would consider demonic possession only after … you know, I was trying to think of circumstances in which I would consider demonic possession, and I realized that it would have to involve things external to the person “possessed”, like Exorcist-style floating beds and so forth, under controlled, recorded, managed conditions, examined by a team from JREF, at which point I would simply take the million and let someone else worry about the demon.
In short, no time ought to be spent on demonic possession theories, except perhaps as a psychological technique to assist the sufferer thereof – i.e., he believes he’s possessed, so acting as though he’s possessed may be the only way to theraputically communicate, etc.
Or, you could simply define “demonic possession” as a form of mental illness wherein a person believes that he is not in control of his own body. That’s beside the point, though.
The question (as I understand it) is whether it’s rational for a Christian to believe in demonic possession as it has been traditionally described, and I think that Diogenes’s definition of demon is accurate in that regard.
What’s being asked is not whether it’s rational to believe in something that produces the symptoms traditionally ascribed to demonic possession. Instead, what’s being asked is whether it’s rational to believe that those symptoms are caused by a “non-material, invisible, intelligent entity”. Since the Christian faith traditionally describes God himself as a non-material, invisible, intelligent entity, I find it perfectly consistent and rational* for somebody who believes in God to also believe in demons, since the only evidence for the existence of either comes from the same source, i.e., the Bible.
*Well, actually, I think it is irrational to believe in God or demons. I just think the inherent inconsistency in believing in one but not the other renders it even more irrational.
Although I suspect you post in jest, I did actually phrase that incorrectly. What I meant to write was that the Christian beliefs in both god and demons have their origins in the same source, i.e., the Bible.
OK, we’ve got eighteen black marbles, twelve gray marbles, six pink marbles, four red marbles, and one that’s kind of turquiosey-teal colored. So, the verdict is, Jesus didn’t raise Lazarus from the dead. We’ll break for lunch, and when we come back, we’ll vote on whether He actually preached the Sermon on the Mount.
Do you actually know anything about the methodology and the motives of the Jesus Seminar? I know a lot of Christians get upset about their conclusions but they are not as arbitrary as many would have them believe. It’s a very long, tedious, cross-researched process which involves a number of different disciplines and a certain empirical standard. Yes the JS presumes that miracles are impossible until proven otherwise. That is what empirical research requires if it is to be legitimate.
The analysis of the words attributed to Jesus is quite detailed and defensible if you really read about in depth. I’d also like to point out that the voting does not denote absolutist decrees as to authenticity as it does to levels of certainty. The JS believes, for instance, that the crucifixion has a very high level of certainty but that the raising of Lazarus does not. That is a perfectly reasonable and necessary position to adopt from a purely objective historical standpoint.
Most of the Seminarians are Christians, btw. Just FYI.
That may well be what was initially asked. But you’ll notice I didn’t respond to that question. Instead, I responded to DtC’s initial comment that it was “…impossible by the pure definition of the word…no conceivable way that a non-material, invisible, intelligent entity can coexist with the laws of physics as we know them.”
In fact, it’s unclear whether or not such a thing is possible. It’s clearly highly unlikely, so far beyond the bounds of reasonable possibility that it’s difficult to imagine a situation in which we would adopt it as a working hypothesis … but it’s not impossible by the “pure definition of the word.” Very little is, after all, except propositions that logically contradict each other, and even some of those are questionable (Schoedinger’s Cat, in its half-alive, half-dead quantum state comes to mind).
I just wanted to keep the record straight. I’m not arguing any sort of useful real-world response, here, I’m just nitpicking over the use of “possible.”
Yes, and in your response you posited a material entity that could coinceivably mimic the symptoms commonly associated with demonic possession. Your hypothetical did nothing whatsoever to dispel Diogenes’ statement.
Again, the issue is not whether there are alternate explanations for demonic possession. The issue is whether it’s rational for a Christian to accept demonic possesion as a possibility.
no can do.
I’m a christian, and that would be asking evil into my area.
I’m sure you could find some folks who would do that for you.
Okay, my examples.
1: It was about 1991, me and my husband lived in a house on W.32.
He was in the hospital (as he was often) and I went to bed.
I always go to the bathroom, then turn the bathroom light off before bed.
Woke up around 3 a.m. to hear something.
Turns out the hot water was running in the tub and the bathroom light was on.
A few days before, a friedn of ours had went into the bathroom and asked for salt for some “spell”.
No one else had the key to the house.
My son (after my husband had passed away) had a toy vacuum cleaner, which made a whirling sound when you pushed it.
It did this on its own twice aroudn 9 p.m. 2 nights in a row.
I can tell you I felt evil in the house, but thats not scientific for you, so it can be discounted (according to you all).
My friedn came over, and prayed and no more problem.
No one will ever convince me there aren’t demons, but you may have fun with my two experiences.
Er, Vanilla, I could have been there and witnessed these events as you describe them, and not once thought of demonic possession of the bath-tub, or whatever.
This is why such notions are insidious – you, an intelligent person, ascribe perfectly mundane phenomena to supernatural entities, before you know it you’ll be speaking in tongues, binding some poor kid and crushing them to death, all for their own good, and for the love of god.
Kind of makes me sick to hear of your exorcising friend, I got none of the fun you hoped for, sorry.
My car’s started to stall (again), it’s either demonic possession or the breather pipe is blocked, what do you think?
A stalling car is not the same as running bath water for no reason, you know this.
Obviously to all, the car has problems, cars act up all the time.
How many people find their water and lights on for no reason?
My friend simply prayed thats all.
Thats all it takes, this wrapping them in blanket stuff is stupid.
So…how would YOU explain the bathroom scene then?
There are prosaic explanations for both of the incidents you describe, vanilla. We obviously don’t have all the data to figure out what happened but a number of natural alternatives could be postualated for each incident.
The water could have simply been left on and you didn’t notice until that night when the house was more quiet.
I have a ketchen faucet which doesn’t close that great. If it’s not completely turned off the water pressure will slowly force it open until it spontaneously “turns itself on.”
My daughter has a number of toys which turn themselves on and off all the time. Sometimes they act especially erratic after she’s had them in the bath tub or been beating them with a hammer.
I don’t know what happened in your case but it doesn’t sound like you really even want to consider natural explanations. You base part of your argument on a “feeling of evil” which is impossible for any of us to evaluate or quantify but it’s not surprising that such a feeling would go away after prayer. It’s a common psychological phenomenon.
I like you so I don’t want to mock you or disrespect you. I don’t think you’re stupid or crazy so I will just say respectfully that given enough data, many of us could brainstorm all kinds of natural explanations for the phenomena you describe.
Well, I happen to think that those involved in the Jesus Seminar are hypocritices, but that’s just me. Perhaps a better description would be “overly convenient rationalizers,” though.
Nothing in the Bible can be proved as having actually occurred. Certain things, however, can apparently be shown to be more improbable than others. So, rather than admit the entire thing is a work of fiction, let’s just discard the parts that are obviously false and cling to whatever is left like a drowning man to a life preserver.
Feh. At least those who claim to believe in the inerrency of the Bible have the courage of their convictions, however wrong those convictions might be.
nice try.
He was in and out of the hospital often (he was HIV+) but it wasn’t stressful, it was a commonplace thing.
Never sleepwalked before, but I can see people are grasping at any explanation.
no offense.
Oh the irony.
Look, I’ll come clean, it was me, I did it just to mess with your head, I’ve been stalking you for years. I’ll stop now. Sorry.
Hands up all those who think the above explanation is more likely than demons?
