This is your post. It is more emphatic than you seem to remember. It might be trivial but I can’t see how you think this. Maybe depends on what the definition of “know” is. I don’t think that trump knows why they voted for him. I don’t think that they know what his statements meant, and there was no way to reconcile all the contradictions in them. There is no large “survivors of donald” movement, who were in favor of him and now have become energized after being lied to or betrayed, yet anyway. It’s starting only now. So to me this is not very knowable.
Then it seems you are either unwilling or unable to have a conversation in the spirit of this thread. The point is that this here is supposed to be focused on the supporters and detractors, not Trump himself. That’s how I interpret it.
Ahem:
Basically the same argument I made, pre-election. And so far, I still think it would be the right choice. While there’s a lot of soft stuff like consumer confidence, international stature, etc. that have been affected since the election, there is very little substantive things that have happened. Travel bans have been blocked, executive orders have been not very good, but not very impactful either. Lots of bluster and not a lot of action. In that regard, I think my analysis from way back still holds. The more controversy and outrage, the more scrambling the administration has to do and less effective it will be. That’s a plus for me - I want the federal government to do as little as possible.
Of course Trump is incoherent. That to me is part of the package. It doesn’t really matter what he says or proposes as long as it is stymied. The details don’t matter if in the meta sense nothing really bad gets enacted. So far so good.
I really do wonder after Trump is no longer president, if those who supported larger government take a step back and rethink that position. To me a safeguard against the worst of Trump’s actions is a weaker federal government, one that doesn’t accrue to itself so much power, and is limited in its ability to act. I think one of the best results that could come from a Trump presidency is a newfound appreciation for limited government. So every time in the future there is a proposal that the government solve some problem with its huge swathe of powers, people first consider what a person like Trump could do with those powers, or someone even worse.
My hope is that it would lead to a shift from executive power to the legislative. But then even when I agreed with Obama’s goals, I felt that legislative consensus was a better road to success than executive muscle, and preferred no action to excessive executive action. So I do hope it leads to greater checks on executive power.
Now, if “limited government” is measured by the government’s budget, I disagree with most of the cuts in the budget released today, as they would make things measurably worse for many. However, even worse than the cuts to me are the proposed increases in the “hard” power of the executive (through military and border security increases), so I suppose I would be agreeing with you on limiting power as a principle?
Or they’re a three-issue voter on all three of those things, and would vote for the Republican no matter who it is.
Are you saying that nothing he has done has been enacted? The things he has done haven’t hurt you? Could they have hurt other Americans?
Are you saying that it is rational to vote for trump because you know that nothing he does will get enacted? That this is a proactive reason to vote pro trump?
Are you saying that trump is the bad cop to teach us to limit government? That’s some experiment.
I don’t follow this. If you’re not a trump voter, or willing to argue the devils case then you are just agreeing with me. Arguing with incoherence is really a problem. That’s boring.
indeed. I think it’s safe to assume that of the people who voted for Trump, at least… half?.. were going to vote the Republican candidate no matter who it was. That leaves about one-tenth of the American population who voted for Trump instead of party, and exploring the degree and causes of their stupidity is worthwhile.
Nothing much of substance just yet. Yes he’s nominated and folks have been confirmed to various cabinet positions, but even they have not done very much. I’m largely in agreement that many of the agencies in question should be curtailed. Federal power and all that.
Yes to the first. To the second, not a proactive reason, but a rational one.
I hope so, in the vein of turning lemons into lemonade.
Not sure what you’re saying. I don’t think there is a single thing you posted on the entire message board I’ve agreed with.
It’s proving harder than I anticipated.
This is a huge gamble you took, knowing full well how unqualified Trump is for the position of POTUS. You have no reason to think just because Trump is an incompetent politician who is unlikely to succeed in his stated policy objectives, that there is an equally low risk that he’ll say or do something that will lead to a catastrophic national or international decision or incident.
I hope you don’t think that “So far so good” after just 60 days is some sort of vindication of your lesser of two evils gambit.
You agree with me that donald is incoherent. The thread is about trying to have a dialogue with the voters for that incoherence, and whether they are incoherent in their vote or not.
I suppose others should take the torch here. But you really think that it is rational to vote for someone in expectation that they will not do anything for 4 years?
“I’m feeling discriminated against because people are taking away the advantages I’ve had for the history of the country” is not a valid excuse. Certain (mostly bigoted) people may feel that, but it doesn’t make it any more valid.
Its all just rationalization. You either enabled the hating, divisive, anti-American views of the Asshole-in-Chief or you didn’t. I really don’t care what your reasons were, what rationalizations you came up with to justify your allowing this pathologically-lying, misanthropist, narcissistic megalomaniac to take office. It makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.
You are a part of the disease, and I am a part of the cure. And I will continue to treat you that way.
You seem to have that backwards, at least as it comes to domestic policy.
We are not concerned about what Trump will do with the powers of Government. I am not afraid that he will use the EPA for evil, I am afraid that he will abolish it, and allow companies to save money by polluting our environment. I am not afraid that he will use the department of education for indoctrinating children, I am afraid that he will abolish it, and leave our children falling further behind in the world. I am not afraid that he will use the department of the interior to tie up land against economic use, I am afraid that he will abolish it, and sell our countries resources off to the highest bidder. I am not afraid that he will use NOAA to control the weather, I am afraid that he will cut its funding, leaving us caught unawares by violent storms. (This is not even getting into climate change issues that I feel we may differ in opinion on the importance.) I am not afraid that he will use healthcare to ration care and have death panels, I am afraid that he will dismantle what healthcare system we have, and leave our country sicker and poorer as a result. I could go on with a list of other departments and programs he is cutting or threatening to cut, but I think you get the point.
In other words, it is the protections that come with having a strong federal government, protections that I feel have made this country one of the best places to live in the world, that he will systematically dismantle, and leave the country far poorer for their loss.
Trump uprooting parts of our government does not make me fear having a strong central government, it only makes me fear electing people who would destroy it.
When it comes to foreign policy, even most conservatives feel that we should have a large military, and a very large one at that. So, I will agree to some level of concern that we can elect a single person with as much control over as much violence as our country has at its disposal, but that is not something that would be changed at all by any of your proposals of smaller government (unless you are proposing cutting back our military to be more in line with the militaries of other countries. [and getting rid of all nuclear weapons.])
You said upthread that you consider a certain level of suffering to be acceptable, and that not all misfortune should be alleviated. I argue that that is doing civilization wrong. My philosophy is that suffering and misfortune are a natural part of the human condition, and that some levels of it are always going to be inevitable. However, I also believe that the entire point of civilization is to address these issues of suffering and misfortune, and work towards ending them as much as possible. If you endorse policies that have the effect of increasing the suffering, or decreasing the amount of misfortune to be alleviated, I feel that you are doing this civilization thing entirely backwards.
No matter how much you consider yourself to be a self made man, you would suffer far, far more were it not for the civilization that you live in. To acknowledge that, to realize your fortune at living at a time and a place where you don’t live a miserable and short life, is to acknowledge your responsibility to use your fortunate place in this society to help to life others out of suffering and misery. Otherwise you are just a taker, just taking the benefits granted to you by generations of our ancestors sacrificing for each other and for the future, and keeping and squandering them all for yourself.
Trump and his rich friends don’t believe that. Oh, the irony. They use the same terms in reverse. They think someone who has worked various low paying jobs all their life is the one who’s a taker here, since they don’t pay any Federal income tax (though they do pay social security/medicare), yet they get the benefits of various Federal programs. Essentially anyone who isn’t making at least 6 figures is just a hungry mouth sucking at the Federal teat, a victim who will whine because they can’t afford health insurance.
Trump sees his vast fortune - however much it is - as being an incredible accomplishment. In his mind, he started with a million dollars, and then I read it was about 250 million when his dad died, and he ended up with ~4000 to ~10,000 million dollars. Pretty big increase in wealth (though it’s not nearly as much if you correct for inflation and compare it to just putting it all into an index fund and waiting). And that number is based on a best case scenario, where he gets to sell each asset he has for the max possible price he could possibly get for it.
The logical flaw here is that most American workers are productive. There are walmart greeters and other low end workers who are not, but most workers produce a lot. And most of what they produce goes to their employer, what they are paid is usually much less than what they produce. And the CEO and the investors get most of that surplus. That’s how capitalism works.
And what a fine job you are doing there, doc. In eight short years you have managed to "cure’ your party of the House, the Senate, the Presidency and 900+ positions at the state level. But you just keep on “treating” the other side with your name calling and hate filled rhetoric. That’ll certainly get them to vote for you next time.
Detente requires both sides to give a little. Until the left quits fooling themselves and is able to admit that, just maybe, they aren’t perfect and the other side isn’t literally the offspring of Satan and Hitler, they will continue to lose. You can’t call your opponents “deplorable” and “the enemy” like Hillary did and expect to gain their votes. You know what you get from that? Trump. Someone who will stand up and sling it right back even harder.
Do you really think the right can’t see Trump for what he is? EVERYBODY knows he is a narcissistic, money-grubbing liar. The left’s problem is that they won’t admit that Hillary was, too. Trump got elected because so many people refused to vote for Lex Luthor in a jump suit while being called every name in the book for pointing out the obvious truth about her.
But, you know best. Keep it up. You are going to “cure” your party right into the cemetery.
Blah blah. The left needs to be “nicer,” while you…well you are demonstrating your hypocrisy right here. Anyone buying that now? You breitboys have been saying the same thing for months now. I guess it’s all you got. It doesn’t preserve any shred of dignity if that’s what you are thinking.
There is a slim margin of voters who were fooled by Trump. They were desperate for change, and didn’t see it coming from the establishment, so they voted for something different.
These are the ones that are worth reaching out to. It’s hard to do, because before they can be reached, they need to realize that they have been scammed. And pointing out that someone has fallen victim to a scam is a delicate subject. People become very defensive. So, there is certainly something to be said about not insulting those who fell for the “hope” that Trump was selling, and about the only thing we can do, is let Trump himself prove that they were fooled by his used car salesmanship.
Most of the rest of Trump voters are not reachable. There are many single issue voters who will never vote for a democrat, no matter the difference in qualification or policy, because they only vote on the issues of guns, abortion, or religion. There are the conservatives, who do not believe that a strong government is necessary for the prosperity of society, and feel that their own efforts are the sole driving force behind their success inn life, and therefore resent being asked to share. Then there are the “deplorables.” If you are a racist or misogynist or an islamophobe or a homophobe or some other form of bigot, then I am sorry, but that is the class that you are in. That is a deplorable position to hold, it is anathema to a progressive society. If you consider yourself to be insulted because of insults towards those on your ideological side, that is for you to examine, not for society to accept.
So, yeah, the left does need to be careful about its rhetoric to some extent, to avoid alienating those whose only sin was being conned by a con artist, but at the same time, we need to remind them that the company that they are keeping is more than just a little unsavory.
Again I must say this is a profoundly silly thing to say in this thread.
You won’t make the reasonable case for donald. You are arguing for his pathology by making the republican “destroy the government” argument. (This means you have a panic room, and a gun?) While at the same time saying that you might vote for him with the wish and foresight that he will not actually do anything for his term (!?!? Must be the dumbest thing I have ever read on here) You are also making the common republican claim that your interests are served so who cares about everyone else who might experience it differently, in a thread which is requesting a dialogue between trump voters and opposers, on the question of how government should be led. I suppose if people don’t like it they aren’t engaging in a fair dialogue with you, and that’s the reason for trump etc etc.?
Meanwhile you are oblivious to the fact that it is only a couple months into this (admittedly it feels like years). Want to try again?
Let’s say you are right. Let’s say HRC is what you say she is.
Does that make DJT equally fit for the role of POTUS? State your rational.
I make 6 figures. All the things Trump wants to cut? Don’t affect me (as long as I maintain that income level). Fuck everybody else.
I’ll make a higher 6 figures if the H1B thing gets restricted or abolished. HRC was definitely not going to touch that because it would be ‘bigoted’ to not let limitless foreigners in to take our jobs.
HRC was going to do more of the same. Keep expanding government, keep expanding it’s regulation of the polluting industry I have a job in. Keep sending money to inner city niggers. Fuck them.
-A Trump Supporter. Quoted more or less verbatim from a friend who is a Trump supporter. He’s spending his time riding his jet skis and motorcycle instead of trolling a forum like this.
In other words a depolorable.
It used to be the “I got mine, fuck everybody else” people would at least keep that to themselves, but now they just come right out in the open with it.