In the Jesus miniseries, just before Judas showed up, the Devil was trying to get Jesus to give in. He was showing images of the crusades, world wars, and so on. Obviously, that wasn’t in the Good Book, but there’s probably some passages along those lines that would inspire this bit. My question is: why would the Devil want to prevent war? Wouldn’t he dig the suffering and all that? Or, was he just using any arguments necessary to get Jesus to give up??
And, what was his motivation for Jesus throwing in the towel? Just an ‘up yours’ to the Big Guy, or would Jesus not dying for our sins give him a better foothold to make humanity even more screwed up?
-sb
PS: Man, if nothing else, the Devil has a great tailor!
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
One month, one week, three days, 16 hours, 4 minutes and 47 seconds.
1626 cigarettes not smoked, saving $203.35.
Life saved: 5 days, 15 hours, 30 minutes.
I didn’t see the show, but I would guess that the dialogue went something like, “Don’t let yourself be crucified, because otherwise you’ll be responsible for starting 2,000 years of terrible religious wars and massacres.”
I suppose that the Devil would prefer people to worship him rather than God, so maybe that would be his motivation for trying to help Jesus of Nazareth slip out through a side door.
MY reply is a question … How did we get from a serpent in Genesis … to the modern image of the Devil/“Satan”.
Satan in Job is not the adversary in the same terms as seen in the New Testament … I also am very curious concerning the motivation given to this enity (for lack of a better word) in wanting to steal (??) human souls.
Total side issue
Do you think …the lack of protest (as in the cases of Jesus Christ SuperStar / The Last Temptation of Christ etc) was due to a more tolerant informed attitude in the “Christian” community or the MEDIA not mentioning any negative feedback.
I suspect that it was just the easiest way they could find to portray Jesus being tempted but at the same time not offend the conservative christian demographic.
After all, how would you have felt if instead of wars and such the devil had used, say, beautiful naked women and kegs?
Well, at least it wouldn’t have been an anachronism. The Bible has lots of women and wine in it. g
I guess I should clarify a little bit-why wouldn’t Satan want wars and suffering? Seems like it would serve him better long term–loss of faith, NY Times ‘G*d is Dead’ stuff, all that. Was he going for the quarterback sack on this one?
Back to one of the other posts, it’s been speculated that the character we know as the modern Devil, G*d’s adversary, all that (not to be confused with the fine poster on this board, unless he wishes it so), is a relatively new concept. Was there a big emphasis on the Devil in the Old Testament?
This all kinda steers towards my personal views on Old Testament vs. New Testament religion. Old Testament, Big G would plague and locust and flood your dumb ass until you capitulated. That’s the dude that Jewish folks fell in love with. I’m thinking that there was a shift in advertising, that a ‘kinder, simpler, 40% more love’ Big G was necessary for the franchise to continue, hence JC, Hell, the Devil, and the New Testament. Either that, or someone was looking for a way around the whole circumcision thing.
I’m totally certain that the devil would stop a smaller battle to win a bigger war.
The devil wants everyone to be as miserable as he is. If Jesus had given up, none of us would ever be saved, but would exist as spirits after our deaths in misery forever, angels to the devil. It was only through Jesus’s Atonement for our sins that we could possibly be forgiven of our sins at all. I have no doubt that Jesus led the hardest life any human being has ever lived, being subjected to the devil’s temptations constantly. But He lived a sinless life, somehow, and was therefore able to vicariously suffer for our sins. The devil must have been on his case night and day, 24/7. But He did it, and so we can have our sins forgiven if we live according to Christ’s gospel laws.
I’d like to know what support there is for this in the Gospels. He wasn’t successfully tempted by the devil, we know this, but that does not mean that he did not sin. The only time I can recall that the devil tempted him was when he went out into the desert. Jesus was God made flesh, he was human and subject to the same feelings, desires and so forth as all of us are- who’s to say that he never sinned?
According to LDS belief, Jesus lived a completely sinless life, and this was very important, because only a sinless man could pay for another man’s sins.
The story is like this: Jack owes Sam some money. Jack finds that he cannot pay Sam the money, so Sam sues him for it. Jack cannot pay, but another man, Jesus, says, “I’ll pay the money for him if he will do what I say.” Jack agrees, Jesus pays the money to Sam, and Jack is set free, on the condition that Jack obeys Jesus’s commandments.
God is both Just and Merciful. The Law of Justice, which God cannot change, demands that transgressors pay the price of their sins. Jesus fulfills the Law of Mercy, which says that a sinless One can pay for repentant sinners’ sins by suffering fully for them Himself. Had Jesus sinned, according to LDS belief He wouldn’t have been able to pay for anyone else’s sins, but since we believe He was sinless, the Law of Mercy is fulfilled in Him and our sins can be forgiven.
I would just like to point out, at this juncture, that if you were to go out to the desert and fast for forty days, you too could have interesting conversations with Satan.
Fast for 40 days? hell, you can do it here, right “Satan”?
Satan does not appear in the OT (at least by name) until 1Chron. -ie King David’s time. The notion apparantly arose during the Captivity. It might have been induced by exposure to Zorastrianism.
First of all, we do know from the New Testament that Jesus was tempted at times other than the wilderness temptation. For example, at the Lord’s supper in Luke, we read:
Luke 22:28
“28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.”
And another reference in Hebrews supports the idea that Jesus was tempted yet without sin:
Hebrews 4:15
“15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Um, I’m sure that’s news to the Jews. My guess is that they could give a rat’s tailpipe about Jesus’s Atonement, because they are the Chosen Ones and are getting in no matter how cool we think JC is. That is, as long as they have two refrigerators, stay away from bacon cheeseburgers, and don’t use elevators on the Sabbath. (just a little kosher humor, for those not familiar… g)
I couldn’t have said or explained it better, Snark.
Also must add that in your example, nothing Jesus asks us to do is bad for us, so its a Good thing to obey Him.
It’s perfectly okay and desirable for you to question God’s laws. No one is telling you to accept without questions.
God’s love is unconditional. We don’t have to do anything to be loved by Him perfectly.
God’s mercy is conditional (LDS beliefs, anyway). We have to obey gospel laws to gain and hold onto a forgiveness of our sins. For instance, we have to repent of our sins, love God, and love our fellow man to retain a forgiveness of sins once we have gained that forgiveness.
He did. He paid for YOUR sins, even if YOU don’t believe in Him. You didn’t have to fill out an antonement application and be approved, He just did it. He doesn’t make you believe before he offers his salvation, He offered it on the cross.