Dex: premature closing?

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

Okay but given that, and given that we’re not always agreed on what those “SOMETIMES” are, wouldn’t it be simpler just to ask mods to decide if they’d rather participate in a thread as a Mod or a poster?

Because it’s too draconian. And because there are two directions that are somewhat contradictory, at times. On the one hand, we WANT mods to be active participants; we do not want mods who just sit back and moderate, and aren’t alive on the boards. Frankly, since there’s no pay, most of the moderators do so because they enjoy being active on the boards.

On the other hand, we want moderating activity to be reasonably prompt. If a mod sees an offense, they act – even if it’s not in their official forum. So, if a mod is participating in a thread, and suddenly a personal insult is hurled, we don’t want to have to wait for the Mod to report it or call in another mod to adjudicate, etc. If a poster reports a problem, it goes to all the mods who officially handle that forum; we want the first mod who sees the report to respond, and not to say “oh, wait, I posted in that thread so I have to wait for another mod to respond.”

The dilemma that I have posed as a SOMETIMES problem, is the fairly limited situation where a mod, participating in a thread, thinks there’s a hijack and feels the need to explain in detail. SOMETIMES the boundary between poster and mod gets blurry in those situations. This is such a limited case that I think your solution is a nuclear warhead applied to shoot a fly.

---

In another area, I agree that Seven’s comment about preferential treatment is not an insult per se… or, at least, is ambiguously so. I took it to be of the nature of “You’re the teacher’s pet, nyah on you.” That’s a taunt, not an insult.

In Cafe Society, the rule on personal insults includes:

Note that “insult” includes making guesses about the other poster’s background, education, state of mind, etc. The personality of the other poster is not relevant to the discussion.

That is, one can’t say taunting things like “You’re obviously a Democrat/Republican” or “English must not be your first language” or “You must have failed chemistry” or “You obviously live in a rural area cut off from civilization.” Such comments are not necessarily “insults” in the general sense, but they are making suppositions about another poster’s character, training, situation, etc that are not relevant to the discussion.

However, that’s not the rule in ATMB. So, presumably a statement about another person that is not actually “insulting” is permitted under present rules. I think the rules on personal insults should be uniform amongst the forums but they’re what they are. So, comments about another person are in that grey fuzzy area. It’s not necessarily an insult to be called a Democrat/Republican or for English to be a second language or to have failed chemistry or to live in a rural area, but it’s clearly personalization that is not relevant to a discussion. And it can certainly be MEANT as an insult.

In any case, the offense in this case (if such it was) was not recorded. It was also partly just the exasperation on the mod’s part of a thread gone out of control.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Giraffe

Forcing a choice between moderating and participating would make the job far less enjoyable. Given that we rely on volunteers to do it, it’s a terrible idea to put up barriers to participation by the mods.

I think you and Dex are overstating my proposal. Dex calls it “draconian,” a very strong term of approbation, and both of you are focused on how this would affect Mods’ enjoyment and morale, which is the least of my concerns here. If they want to participate in some topic, all they’d have to do is acknowledge that they’re enjoying it too much to continue as a Mod in that one thread, and then they’re free to act like the biggest sore-loser, strawman-totin’ fool that ever came down the pike. There’s a certain amount of pure funning, kidding around, wisecracking that Mods have always had, anyway–what I’m discussing is the
“[Mod Hat off] What a foolish, weak, self-contradictory, pathetic argument you’re making here…
[Mod Hat on] you’re out of line, tone down your rhetoric and hijacking and general misbehavior. This has nothing to do with my previously expressed opinions as a poster, and pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. I am the great and powerful Mod! Stifle yourself, and do it NOW!!!”

syndrome that too often gets indulged in around these parts. It’s abusive to Mods to ask them to moderate in such a way that makes it difficult for them to confuse their dual roles? Please.

[RaftPeople]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

Have a Happy Fourth of July, for those of you in a country where that’s a holiday.

So now it’s preferential comments to posters in specific countries. Other countries have a fourth of July also, maybe people in those countries want to have a good day too, even though it’s just a regular day.

That’s almost the same as saying “if you don’t live in the US then I do not want you to have a good day.” And I think you know some posters that post in ATMB that aren’t in the US, in which case this was just a coded insult directed at them.

[tomndebb]

@Giraffe

I think tomndebb was inappropriately mixing his moderation with his opinions on the OP in that thread, . . .

This is an interesting point that has been repeated in both of the ATMB threads.

The only reason I mentioned any point that was relevant to the discussion in the original GD thread was that I was, actually, in agreement with the basic, (not extended) point that Fenris was making. I was quite sure that, in the situation as it was developing, had I simply made a “Mod” statement, I would find other posters, (not Fenris, particularly), then making accusations that I was simply using my Mod authority to defend Liberal’s position. (In fact, in the ensuing discussion, I have seen that claim stated or implied in more than one post, despite the fact that any critical reading of my text would have demonstrated that I was doing no such thing.)

It is all very well to claim that Mod’s should never intertwine their personal opinions and their Mod rulings and I agree with that as a basic guideline, but there is more to herding you cats than simply issuing robotic rulings from on high. Sometimes the method I choose works, sometimes it fails. I will certainly keep this incident in mind in future situations, but I am still going to attempt to Mod in such a way as to reduce the conflict among posters and I am still going to periodically fail, either due to my own clumsiness or misreading of the situation or because some posters simply see the username tomndebb and decline to read the actual words I’ve posted except to look for catchphrases that they can take out of context.

[Morgenstern]

@Liberal

It translates to the equivalent of “You’re just the teacher’s pet.” It’s a standard third grade insult.

Liberal, in all fairness that is stretching, really stretching. Reeeeeeally stretching.

I’ve seen many mod warnings in my 2 years here. Most of the time I’ve felt they were too little too late. Not so here.

[Fenris]

@Morgenstern

Liberal, in all fairness that is stretching, really stretching. Reeeeeeally stretching.

It seems to me that some people feel the need to make sure that the thread is always about them. (See post #9)

[Seven]

@aldiboronti

If there had been evidence to back it up then that’s a different matter. There wasn’t. If I called someone a thief and a liar then I’d be insulting them if I didn’t back it up with evidence.

Groundless accusations are insulting.

Ok, here is a simple one.

Refer to Liberal as Libertarian and see what happens - especially in the debate forum.

He is the only user here which can not be called by his original username.

[Seven]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

I thought Seven’s comment was (yet another in that thread) an under-the-table jab directed at Liberal, implying that he gets “special treatment.” Note that it was not an Official Warning, because I did say “pretty much” (implying that there was room for more favorable interpretation), so it was more a friendly reminder.

How in the world is that directed at the user formally known as Libertarian?

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Seven

How in the world is that directed at the user formally known as Libertarian?

When we’re being informal, however, we just call him “Hey, Knucklehead.”

[ashman165]

I’m not sure that complete abstention from moderating is really helpful. Just because a moderator is in a post as a poster and is heated, doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t stop conduct that is quite obviously against the rules. For instance, if someone says, “You’re a goddamned fucking douche of a person” and some moderator is in a heated discussion, he should be able to throw on his modhat and stop that.

That’s why I offered up what, I think anyway, is a more economical solution (I’m not sure if crossposting to my own post is a good idea?), which is essentially that either separate out the posts such that no personal posting in a modpost, and no modposting in a personal post, or they should have to do the [modhat ]/[/modhat] thing so it’s clear which role they’re in.

Or just put a headline in each post like “mod note” or “mod warning”. Barring such a note, the default should be that it’s moderator as poster not moderator qua moderator.

[aldiboronti]

@Seven

Ok, here is a simple one.

Refer to Liberal as Libertarian and see what happens - especially in the debate forum.

He is the only user here which can not be called by his original username.

As I recall he was being harassed by some members, who deliberately ignored the name change and persistently used his former name knowing full well they would get a reaction. You think the mods should have ignored that? I’m certain they would have given the same ruling if any other member had been treated thus.

Although if you have evidence that similar cases *have *been ignored then I’ll think again.

[DSYoungEsq]

@RaftPeople

So now it’s preferential comments to posters in specific countries. Other countries have a fourth of July also, maybe people in those countries want to have a good day too, even though it’s just a regular day.

That’s almost the same as saying “if you don’t live in the US then I do not want you to have a good day.” And I think you know some posters that post in ATMB that aren’t in the US, in which case this was just a coded insult directed at them.

Sometimes, people just try too hard to complain.

If you wished someone a Happy Bastille Day in the United States, it wouldn’t make much sense, would it? Dex isn’t wishing people a happy July 4, he’s wishing people a Happy American Independence Day, only he’s using the modern euphemism of “Fourth of July” to do it. And he isn’t telling other people not to have a happy day; the “happy” is part of the phrasing for wishing someone a good holiday, like “Merry Christmas.” Unless you think wishing some people Merry Christmas means you are telling non-Christians not to have a merry day? :smack:

[aldiboronti]

@DSYoungEsq

Sometimes, people just try too hard to complain.

If you wished someone a Happy Bastille Day in the United States, it wouldn’t make much sense, would it? Dex isn’t wishing people a happy July 4, he’s wishing people a Happy American Independence Day, only he’s using the modern euphemism of “Fourth of July” to do it. And he isn’t telling other people not to have a happy day; the “happy” is part of the phrasing for wishing someone a good holiday, like “Merry Christmas.” Unless you think wishing some people Merry Christmas means you are telling non-Christians not to have a merry day? :smack:

You may well have been whooshed.

[Fenris]

One (1) member was harassing him.*

I don’t have a prob with the mods saying “No, you have to use his current name everywhere except the Pit” but in my opinion Lib threw such a tantrum that he got a blanket rule created that prevented anyone from using Liberal or Liberaltarian even in the Pit.

Giraffe reversed that rule down the line for the Pit although it still stands elsewhere, as far as I know, the only user-specific rule of it’s kind.

Other posters, however, have had to just muddle by.

Kel Varnsen, Latex Division was often called “Karl” which pissed him off to no end. No rule was instituted. There may have been a few wrist-slaps (I don’t remember) but there was certainly no general rule that went so far as to threaten warning or banning if you called him “Karl” (especially in the Pit.)

VC03–had a similar issue–he might have been VCO3…the point was he bitched about people not getting his name right and nothing was done about it and no general Board rule was created and certainly no rule that gave him special protection in the Pit.

Aldeberan was called “Deb” (IIRC) which really, really pissed him off, although he was such a seething cauldron of rage that it was hard to tell. I recall some minor hand-slaps, but no general rule and no special protection in the Pit.

And to back Seven up regarding the “teacher’s pet” thing, here’s another example, just like the one that prompted the now-closed thread, where Liberal wanted special treatment for his thread. In my opinion, blew a gasket when anyone disagreeing or asking hard questions in it Short version: He had an “Ask the Libertarian” thread, (the sadly gone) Dewey Cheatem Undhow started asking some tough questions and we got that pit-thread. Note that Esprix, who (IIRC) invented the “Ask The…” format of threads says that it’s kosher to argue with the OP.

Lib has been pitted for hijacking threads so many times that it was a running joke for a while there (to be fair, this behavior stopped when he dropped his “Libertarian” name. And yet gets upset when he thinks other people are hijacking (read “disagreeing with him”) in his threads.

Many other times when that happened, mods would say “Ok, buh-bye. Don’t let the door hit you!” and lock the account. Either Gaudere or Veb (or possibly Lynn?) had a 4 or 5 person streak where they banned people who said they were gonna quit in a short period (a month or so), to hilarious effect. Not Liberal. Liberal has stomped off the board in a huff swearing to never come back several times and nothing’s done.

Vanilla got banned (the first time) for dragging a fight from her church here. Some kid (Lucki_Chaarms?) got banned (or warned or suspended or something) for going to Stormfront and saying “You guys are morons–we here at the SDMB are smart enough to take you on.” (IMO, the kid’s heart was in the right place but his head was up his butt. Made for some entertaining threads though). Lib however, went to Opal’s site, tried to stir up shit by lmaking up stories about what happened (claiming he’d been banned while, in fact, he stomped off and asked the mods to lock his account) and then afterwards came back with no warnings at all.

So, no. I don’t think Seven’s question was an insult to Liberal (mine may be taken that way–but I’m only trying to provide evidence to back up my opinion) as much as a question to the mods about what he, and I, the more I think about it, perceive as a pattern of letting things go with Lib that demonstrably has gotten other people banned on first offenses.

(I know this reads like an attack on Liberal, and I’m not going to pretend it’s not, but I’m trying to address the perception of special treatment by the mods and that goes in ATMB and I can’t do that without examples.)

I don’t think there’s an organized pro-Liberal conspiracy among the mods. I suspect that some of them consider him a pain in the butt. And perhaps that’s the problem. Liberal’s loud complaints mixed with wanting to appear fair may have led the mods to go too far in the other direction.

*Come to think of it, IIRC, he wasn’t actually harassing him, he was just theatening to.

[Fenris]

Many times when people said they were disgusted with what was going on and said they were quitting, mods would say “Ok, buh-bye. Don’t let the door hit you!” and lock the account. Either Gaudere or Veb (or possibly Lynn?) had a 4 or 5 person streak where they banned people who said they were gonna quit in a short period (a month or so), to hilarious effect. Not Liberal. Liberal has stomped off the board in a huff swearing to never come back several times and nothing’s done.

Sorry–typo.

[RaftPeople]

@aldiboronti

You may well have been whooshed.

[Liberal]

@Giraffe

Not to be stupid, but how could implying that Liberal gets special treatment from the mods be a jab at Liberal.

If I said, “Giraffe is the only poster who gets away with breaking rules,” I would intend it as a jab at you.

@PRR

When we’re being informal, however, we just call him “Hey, Knucklehead.”

Hey, how did you ever get out of Spain?

[ashman165]

@Liberal

If I said, “Giraffe is the only poster who gets away with breaking rules,” I would intend it as a jab at you.

So because of your putative intent, it must follow that his was likewise?

[Liberal]

@Fenris

(I know this reads like an attack on Liberal, and I’m not going to pretend it’s not, but I’m trying to address the perception of special treatment by the mods and that goes in ATMB and I can’t do that without examples.)

I have only one question, really. When did you and I fall out? I know that, due to various badly prescribed medications and general assholery, I have been hard to tolerate on many occasions. But I’ve been here ten years, and I’m outspoken. The point I’m making is that my memory is a bit like swiss cheese. I cannot recall when I first pissed you off or why, but there has to be something that hit you like a brick in the face because your screeds against me have been waaaaaay over the top, complete with searching for past transgressions (which is itself an exercise in great patience and frustration). If I contacted you by PM, is there any chance we could work things out?

[Liberal]

@ashman165

So because of your putative intent, it must follow that his was likewise?

Nah. That’s just something you’ve made up. I’ve just never heard the sentiment that “you’re the teachers pet” made in the context of “and that’s what’s so wonderful about you.” But I don’t get out that much.