Dezoning of DVD players

This relates to a thread in ATMB: Can we discuss the altering of our DVD players. It is not a criticism of this Board’s general policy on copyright, nor really a criticism of the decision. But it is a criticism of the reasoning there, so it belongs here in the Pit, even though the content is more GD material.

This doesn’t make sense. Copyright is all about distribution purposes. The purpose of zoning is to allow greater profits from the ownership of DVD copyrights. Zoning allows the distributor to release an item at different times in different markets. For a holiday movie this means that they can release the DVD in different holiday times in different markets and so get more profits. It allows different versions to be released in different markets, allowing higher average prices.

Yes, these are monopoly practices - but that’s what copyright is all about: the grant of monopoly rights in the hope that this will stimulate artistic enterprise and reward the creators of entertainment.

This doesn’t help your argument at all. If manufacturers do this at a cost to the consumer - particularly if the firms are themselves owners of copyrighted material - this is just part of copyright owners making a buck by price discriminatory practices. And of course artists benefit from zoning - the royalties paid and the number of artists employed depend on the profitability of the companies that organise and distribute their product.

Now, you could argue that the extent of monopoly rights granted to copyright owners is excessive and comes at too great a cost to the consumer; more so given recent technological changes. And you could argue that the current system of copyright encourages a system of production where large companies make off with the loaf leaving most artists with crumbs. And I’d agree. You could even argue that it is a profit-driven strategy of these companies to push some consumers towards practices of dubious legality. But DVD dezoning most surely is a copyright issue.

Ehh?

Did the definition of copyright change?

How the hell is it a copyright violation if I BUY a DVD then view it?

Cause when you dezone a dvd player THAT’S WhAT YOU"RE FREAKING DOING! You bought the right to use the DVD system, and the right to view the DVD…

The only thing you’re doing is circumventing the street date of the release.

There is no legal entitlement to a ‘street date’…

Hell, there are a number of DVDs out there for really good movies that will NEVER be picked up for release where I live.

Arrg copyright and distribution are two seperate things!

Why the crap is this in the pit?

Get this out of the pit!

Read the forum descriptions. “This is the place for all complaints and other discussion regarding administration of the SDMB.” The ATMB thread was the right place to ask, this is the right place to discuss.

Didn’t say it is. This is not about the legality of DVD rezoning. This is about the Board’s attitude towards the discussion of it and means to do it. The Board’s general policy seems to be something like Tuba posted in that thread:

This isn’t “anything that has specifically been found to be illegal can’t be posted”. It is significantly more stringent as you might well expect a newspaper’s policy to be.

I’m not saying I like the policy. I’m not saying that DVD dezoning is illegal immoral or fattening. What I am saying is that Coldfire’s reasoning is wrong. Had you read my OP and the link, all this would have already been quite clear.

I disagree, hawthorne. Re-wiring your DVD player to play foreign DVDs is no more illegal than, say, re-wiring your car so that annoying electronic voice quits nagging you about your seatbelt. I am not violating any copyright, because there is no copyright involved in manufacturing a DVD player. Furthermore, if doing this were a copyright violation, I suspect that it would also be illegal for me to buy a DVD player that has no region coding at all. It would probably also be illegal for me to buy a DVD in, say, France, and have it shipped to me so I could play DVDs coded for the European market. Since none of these are illegal, I don’t see the problem with buying a cheap, domestic DVD player and altering it to suit my purposes. Region coding has nothing to do with copyright, it is merely a pathetic and pointless attempt on behalf of the manufacturers to control a market they no longer even understand.

hawthorne, if region-free DVD players were illegal in the USA for copyright reasons, don’t you think we would have heard about it from the MPAA by now?

hawthorne, you have a point. At the very least, I chose my words uncarefully.

You are absolutely right that there is a correlation between distribution and copyright in this case. So, rather than argue with you over my definitions quoted above, allow me to rephrase, and tell me if it makes sense.

The Straight Dope Message Board and its staff do not generally allow discussions on methods of breaking copyright. Programs like Napster spring to mind: whenever a particular piece of software, or a website, or a device, seems to exist for the sole purpose of copying and distributing copyrighted material at no benefit to the copyright owner, we shut it down toute suite.

De-zoning a DVD player is a practise that recently came up. It has been asked if it has to be regarded in the same light as the programs and methods above. We believe this is not the case. Whilst buying and playing an Asian DVD renders the copyright owner less revenue than playing the American/European counterpart, that copyright owner still chose to put the DVD into the market for that price - albeit in Asia. The zoning system on DVD players seems to exist for the sole purpose of price differentiation between markets: an American citizen will have more purchase power, hence he “should” pay more for the latest Bond DVD than your average inhabitant of Thailand.
We believe that while it is certainly the right of the copyright owner to attempt this practise, it is certainly not reprehensible to circumvent is as a consumer.

An example: whenever I’m in Gemany, I tend to pick up a whole bunch of the latest CD’s I was planning on purchasing. Why? Because CD’s in general are about 15-20% cheaper in Germany, compared to the Dutch prices. Upon arrival home, my CD player will play the German disks just fine. Also, my car CD player doesn’t stop reproducing sound when I cross the Dutch border. :slight_smile:

The fact that manufacturers of DVD players chose to protect their monetary interests by disabling the playback of “foreign” DVD’s does not mean that the consumer is not in his right when he attempts to get the best price on a product, even if that means purchasing the product abroad. As long as the DVD is legally produced and sold, no copyright infringement has been comitted, and no moral objections can be made against the playback of said DVD.

The fact that many manufacturers will allow de-zoning of their players by authorised dealers adds to this suspicion: it is a technological barrier created for profit reasons only.

In conclusion, the Straight Dope Message Board can be used as a place to discuss de-zoning of DVD players. Disabling the Macrovision features of a player, however, is a topic that shall remain off limits. For those not in the know: Macrovision prevents a DVD from being copied onto a video cassette. It is clear that disabling this feature can only mean that copyright infringements are imminent. Therefore, it shall not be discussed on the SDMB.

There ya go - howsat? :slight_smile:

You’re a veritable Solomon, Coldfire.

:slight_smile:

Thanks. Got any babies left?

A quibble: there is a legit reason to disable Macrovision: it fucks up the picture, especially on Videotape. Unless you have juuuust the right cables, and unless your TV works juuuuust right, you’ll get at best, a crappy picture.

I’ve got a competely unviewable copy of the movie The Castle of Cagliostro: bought new and unwatchable as the Macrovision is so strong that the subtitles are unreadable.

I’m not arguing with the SDMB’s policy on Macrovision, just pointing out that there is a legit reason for wanting it turned off.

Fenris

Oh, I’m sure there can be many legit reasons, and I’ve heard this one before as well. But as you understand, it’s about that one reason - the sudden ability to copy DVD’s onto tape.

Yep, I’m quite happy with that. I haven’t a problem with the policy and I think you’ve now explained the basis for drawing the line where you have rather well. Thanks and sorry for the kerfuffle - I just didn’t think it could be said in ATMB.

Watch out for the Solomonic baby solution - even Cartman knows how to get around that.

Sheesh, did no one read my post in that other thread? Let me refresh your memories:

Your “seatbelt light” example is not a good analogue, because the system that displays the seatbelt light is not in place to control access to copyrighted works.

Now, in altering your DVD player to make it code-free, you’re correct that you haven’t violated anyone’s copyright (until you actually play a DVD in it). However, the act of bypassing the region coding hardware in itself is an unlawful act under the DMCA.

Oh, they understand the market. They understand that without some way to restrain the spread of DVDs, people in the rest of the world will purchase DVDs from America and get to see Hollywood movies before they are theatrically released in their own country. So, producers either need to keep DVDs from spreading in some way, or make theatrical premieres simultaneous worldwide, which is a logistical nightmare.

I suspect, but can’t say for sure, that there’s nothing illegal in purchasing a region-free DVD player; however, knowing how tightly the DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation controls its licensees, I’d suspect that such a player violates the manufacturer’s agreement with the DVDFLLC concerning the manufacture of players, and I’ll wager that “recall and destroy” is their contract remedy.

As for buying a DVD player in France and using it in the US: nothing illegal about that. Knock yourself out.

Just to throw some information on this point in, I bought a DVD player recently (region 4). Before I took it home, the dealer plugged the unit in, put a disc in the drawer which reprogrammed the player to be region-free - no charge, I didn’t ask for it. The disc was marked with the DVD manufacturer’s name and logo, and the dealer said they do the reprogramming pretty much as a standard thing when they sell a DVD player.

So, am I then correct in assuming that the practice of authorised dealers de-zoning DVD players is nonexistant in the US?

Why wouldn’t they do the same thing in Europe? I mean, why haven’t they found a way to bribe legislators here yet? :slight_smile:

If anything, DVD’s are even more expensive here than in the US, so the potential loss of revenue from dezoning practices is even higher. Yet they let their dealers do it.

My uncle is a manager in a Phillips dealership and he does it as a service free of cost to all DVD’s he sells. he just uses a special remote that was supplied to him by central office.

Hehe I just have an issue that you violated the sanctity of the pit with something civil and discussion provoking, get thee back to GD or something :slight_smile:

Anyhoo, if anything dezoning is a licensing violation between the manufacturer and the retailer.

Nothing in the included documentation forbids dezoning, all parties involved in the development, manufacture and distribution of DVDs and what not recieve their full asking price (in the local of purchase).

None of this violates copywrite laws in the US. You bought your license to use the DVD technology (player) and your license to view the media (individual disks).

Now if you modded your DVD player to play bootleg disks (also easy) then you are violating copywrite, but only when you play bootlegged disks.

It’s the whole thing: It’s only illegal when you get something for free issue.

Or at least this was how it was explained to me by my friend who works in the Sony legal department.

But damnit, please include profanity or tales of abuse (like the dvd players ate your favorite teddy bear and now you wish to sacrafice it to lord kimbob) or something to spice it up!

This is the pit by god! We like it spicy*

*well not spicy like those fucking hot cheetos.

I dunno, Max. If I can legally pay someone to get around region coding for me, I don’t see how it could possibly be illegal for me to do it myself.

Max Torque, I disagree. But given that this whole argument is completely unpitlike, I will comment in the thread from which you quote yourself, not this one

In Australia, at least, parallel importing has been legal for several years so I’m not surprised that many retailers will de-regionalise a DVD player at the point of sale. Copies imported from overseas are still legally produced copies made under license, and I’m not even sure that it would be legal here to effectively force people to buy region 4 DVDs or to pay to have their DVD player de-regionalised (I suspect the ACCC would have something to say about such practises).

The whole region coding thing is just to control the distribution of DVD’s to the different regions and keep the prices in those regions artificially high. That’s why I can buy the same DVD from Amazon.com in the US and after import tax it is still cheaper than buying it from Amazon.co.uk! Also, they can make the ‘Special Edition’ copies in different regions have more or less features - why?

It’s the same with video games - there was consistently a much bigger range of games available for the Playstation 1 and 2 in Japan than in the US and Europe, and some of the games released worldwide had ‘extra’ features only available in the Japanese releases. Chipping the consoles took care of that, but why do it in the first place? I can understand if it can be justified on the grouds of censorship for a particular country, but why do it for whole regions? It makes no sense whatsoever!

Can you imagine a car manufacturer building cars for another country and saying ‘Sorry, we don’t think you deserve to have airbags fitted to this car in your country!’ when they export them to you? Or Microsoft saying ‘Sorry, Europe, but all your copies of Windows will have only one style of desktop because you all talk funny!’

Crazy!