I would add these:
“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”–MLK, Jr
And (hafta paraphrase, no time to search)–“What we will remember is not the harshness of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” also MLK, Jr.
thanks for the quotes steve !
Didn’t think you were. Simply don’t want to hear anything so poisonous and foul directed to anyone. Ever.
Why don’t I ever see any threads by left wingnuts expressing moral outrage over Sudan, Rwanda, the pilfering of $30 bn from the Iraqi people, or a 150 person strong
UN administered pedophile ring?
Why are there 50 billion threads about abuse of, if not terrorists, then at least likely n’er do wells, when there is still ongoing rape and abuse of children by UN Peacekeepers? I’m certainly not saying the US is blameless, but where is the balance?
Because it’s US! WE are responsible for this mess, WE are responsible for what’s going on in Gitmo and what went on at Abu Ghraib. WE are the ones who are looking pretty shitty right now. And I personally find it absolutely reprehensible that this Administration is doing all of this completely immoral and horrible stuff in MY name!
Never has “of the people, by the people, and for the people” made me so ashamed as it has in the last three years. Never.
Because, as a US citizen, I am in a better position to influence the actions of the US (through protest, public debate, and the ballot) than I am to affect the actions of dictatorial governments a hemisphere away from me. Look at it this way. What would outrage you more: knowing that your neighbor is cheating on his wife, or knowing that your dad is cheating on your mom? People get more outraged by injustices that happen close to them, or that happen to (or are committed by) people they know.
You are certainly welcome to open that thread.
Not possible, the boy King’s got the wrong-handed thread.
Fush, you mentioned confidence in our own Department of Defense as a source. Earlier someone reminded you of have former Secretary of Defense Robert MacNamara wrote a book acknowledging the lies that he and the DOD told about the war in Vietnam.
Here is another explanation for why we need outside sources:
“The reason we don’t do a report on ourselves is the same reason you wouldn’t write investigative reports about your own finances or something; it wouldn’t have any credibility. Somebody else needs to do that. It’s not that we’re against being scrutinized, and indeed we are scrutinized by many other organizations: Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International.” – Assistant Secretary of State Michael Kozak , approximately a year ago (bolding mine)
Fair enough. However, so many things about this thread and the issue in general strike me as so odd. First off, you’ve already convicted the US Government with no trial. Isn’t that just as bad as holding prisoners at Gitmo on flimsy evidence? On top of that, the allegations don’t seem that horrific for the most part. Being intimidated by dogs? Being given a Bible instead of a Koran? Being draped in an Israeli flag? Being interviewed by a female officer in a bra? The stuff at Abu Grahib doesn’t fit into my definition of torture either. It is gratuitious abuse but the US Government has no reason to sanction that. Christ, if this was the extent of the torture I received as a prisoner in another country I’d be grateful. Being chained to a floor for 24 hours? Big fricking deal. Ok so one guy said he was beaten until he pissed his pants. It’s just an allegation and accidents happen (on both sides). If you add in the fact that a prisoner is likely to hyperbolize his suffering…
Gratuitous abuse is never acceptable and I don’t advocate the wholesale use of such tactics against the gen pop, but I would accept any of these tactics to extract information from someone who was suspected of having important information. Call me cold. But I sure as hell wouldn’t scream abuse if that was the treatment I got as a POW. Now some will say that most of these people are being held without cause and are most likely not criminals. That’s a problem. It doesn’t mean that those are the prisoners getting the worst of it. Honestly, I think the reason the administration takes liberties in rounding up potential suspects is because they’re so often hamstrung by liberal activist judges.
No, it just isn’t as bad. Aside from the fact that there have been trials about the abuse, there is a huge difference between public revulsion at allegations, and a government holding people in secret detention without trial. Trying to view the two as morally equivalent is insane. If the government wants to dispel such allegations, maybe they could do stuff like, maybe, granting access to lawyers?
I’d be a lot mroe grateful if another country didn’t imprison me without charge at all. You have an incredibly low standard of behavior you expect from foreign countries if locking you up without charge, without access to a lawyer, without trial, without any idea of when it will end is something for which you would be grateful. If that happens to an American, the State Department is rightly screaming blue bloody murder.
I guess the holding of the hostages in Iran was no ‘big fricking deal’ either for you?
But these people are not being held as POW’s are they? That’s part of the whole argument. (Hits head against a brick wall repeatedly).
Yes, I am sure that the people doing the torture are being discriminatory about which Arab face they pick on. I guess when they are building a naked human pyramid they make sure only to pick on the people they have been told are the truly guilty ones, and not the innocent. Just think about the idiocy of what you are saying here. You think the government knows which people are the ones who are criminals, and tortures those, but just incarcerates the rest, who they know are not criminals? Would that make any sense at all (not that much of the policy makes sense). If they know this, why are they holding the people who are not ‘getting the worst of it’ if they know they are not worth holding? Might it not be more likely that they do not know who in the people they have rounded up is ‘criminal’ and who isn’t? If that is the case, is the torture not just as likely to include the innocent?
So it is my fault for supporting the Bill of Rights that the government orders the torture of people and rounds thousands up? Well I guess Pat Robertson told me 9-11 was my fault, after all.
Liberal activist judges? Due process, the right to a speedy trial, protection against unreasonable search and seizure are all the Law. It’s sometimes called the Bill of Rights. The judges were reading the Law as it was written. There is nothing liberal or activist about it. The whole deal stinks of shit, as in shitting directly on the Constitution and our flag. It wasn’t the judges doing the shitting either.
Yes, because I’m also holding congress prisoner in my basement, sexually humiliating them, and giving them the occasional beating. Therefore, the two situations are completely morally equivalent.
I never said they were. My “as bad as” referred to violations of a right to a “fair trial.”
This thread has gone WAY beyond “revulsion at allegations.” Most involved here have already found the US guilty.
The only big deal about the hostage crisis was your friend Carter being too much of a pussy to do anything about it. I don’t have a problem with the treatment of the hostages.
Would you not call it torture if they were?
Do you consider being intimidated by dogs, being given a Bible instead of a Koran, being draped in an Israeli flag or being interviewed by a female officer in a bra torture? Hypothetical: If we somehow knew that someone was definitely guilty of terrorist activities and that the above tactics had been found to extract actionable intelligence in the past, would you advocate their use? These questions aren’t rhetorical, I would really like an answer.
Re: Dick Cheney you worthless mound of excrement
Well, that’s the problem. The U.S. government is acting in ways that make the North Korean government’s name-calling seem credible. That’s just sad.
You are being rather selective with your anecdotes.
“Natural causes” might just be right, you know. Seems to me that if he came out surviving being suffocated, it would be pretty unnatural.
:rolleyes:
That’s why I said I wasn’t being fricking rhetorical. I really want to know the answer to THAT question.