Thought about this today, watching a documentary on the O’Neill clan in Ireland, who were routed by English forces, thereby knocking out a stronghold of Catholicism in Ireland.
It made me think, quite a few countries have been absorbed and held onto for a long time by their neighbours; Ireland, Scotland and Wales by England, Iceland by Denmark, Norway by Sweden.
Given that the countries that took them over were reasonably well advanced socially and technologically, is there any reason to think that any of the subject nations benefited in the long term? Is there any evidence that Ireland for example perhaps might not have gone through the Celtic Tiger or would it be better off now had it been independent throughout? Should we expect that every European nation could have attained generally equally high levels of advancement?
Exactly. Remove Dublin from the list of major British cities and ports in the 19th and early 20th centuries and as the home of a quarter of the population in recent decades, and take out industrial Belfast, too. It’s impossible to go back before that time and extrapolate any meaningful alternatives, other than as mere possibilities.
I don’t see how the Celtic Tiger phase (I take it you are referring to Ireland’s rapid economic growth in the 1990s) is particularly related to (all of) Ireland having been subject to British rule many decades earlier. There are various theories about why it happened, but sadly this is GQ.
As to the general question itself, surely less advanced societies get some benefit from being conquered by more advanced societies. You do have to balance it against the genocide and oppression, though. We got a lovely road network from our Roman overlords, and some interesting new ideas about central heating. The British, in their imperial heyday, probably instilled some valuable ideas about education, legal systems and so forth.
Germany certainly benefitted from being invaded. Several times, in fact. Napoleon wiped out the last vestiges of the Holy Roman Empire, and with it the hodge-podge of independent principalities and cities at Germany was at the time. This erasure, when added to the German nationalism that arose in the wake of Napoleon made German Unification later in the century possible. No Napoleon = no Germany, at least not in the 19th century.
Of course, that answer assumes that the intensely nationalistic form that unified Germany took was a good thing…some might argue the contrary…but we’re in GQ.
The Celtic Tiger title is laregely a myth.
When various Asian economies took off big style due to innovation,pragmatic marketing and heavy investment they became known as “Tiger” economies and rightly so.
Various Irish politicians hi jacked this title to describe their own upturn in standard of living,improved infrastructure etc as though it was in fact some form of economic miracle.
If economic miracle it was it was purely down to Eires neighbours in Europe giving substantial financial grants to Ireland to pay for their bringing their infrastructure up to a level approaching that of the rest of Western Europes and grant aid to encourage other nations to open plants and offices in the R.O.I.,unfortunately when the E.C. stopped paying the subsidies then foreign companies seemed to quickly lose interest.
The only reason that Eires economy hasn’t collapsed from the very first day of its "independance"has been the the U.K.s allowing Irish citizens to work in/claim welfare in Britain at will,followed by Australia and the United States.
Ireland making no realistic financial attempt to defend itself against foreign aggressors relying instead on the tacit understanding that Britain and later N.A.T.O would do so.
There has also been a thriving industry in smuggling fuel oil,tobacco products(Which are both heavily taxed for enviromental reasons in the U.K. but not in Eire)and drugs in to Ulster as an entrance to the rest of the U.K.
The Celtic Tiger may be a journalistic phrase, but the dramatic upturn in economic performance over the last 15 years is not a myth. It’s a convenient shorthand.
The Asian tigers collapsed due to overextended credit and currency crises; the Celtic tiger’s still going.
Despite what you say, it isn’t just politicians whose lifestyles improved during this period. Doesn’t matter really how it was achieved. In truth, it was more down to tax holidays for inwardly investing IT companies that did it, than anything else. I don’t recall any EU-funded grants to this end, EU-funded or not. And the infrastructure’s still pretty crap.
Furthermore, the smuggling between borders that you mention doesn’t have a major effect on the economy, other than the economy of the gangsters who do it. And since petrol has been cheaper in the Republic than the North for several years now, I’d imagine the flow is now the other way.
Next, “Eire” isn’t a word, as you’ve missed out the accent - and you’re not writing in Irish, so “Éire” isn’t appropriate either. It’s “the Republic of Ireland”.
And “Ulster” is a province that contains nine counties, three of which are in the Republic of Ireland, so you should really use the non-prejudicial term “Northern Ireland” when describing the 6-county territory.
I agree about the paucity of the Republic of Ireland’s defence forces. Then again, realistically, who’s going to invade?
From the number of innacuracies and sweeping statements in your hijack, one would almost think you didn’t know what you were talking about!
I believe you are conflating EU structural funds that have helped improve the Republic of Ireland’s infrastructure and Irish government policy that provides incentives for investment such as low corporate taxes. Both these things make Ireland more attractive to foreign investment but they are separate. Dismissing the real improvement in Ireland’s economy because we were helped by our neighbours in what is called the European Union somewhat misses the point of the union. Ireland is due to become a net contributor to EU funds in the coming years ( http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=181&docID=2841)
Yes a very many Irish people did emigrate to the UK, most of whom worked bloody hard to the benefit of all UK citizens. Emigration out of Ireland began long before independence by the way.
What power could conceivably invade Ireland other than the UK and perhaps the US which has no probable reason for invading a friendly nation?
You take the illegal activities of a small minority and try to tar the whole country with the one brush. Tabacco products are by the way taxed significantly. This isn’t bandit country you know. Most of us work in legitimate jobs in an advanced economy.
I’ll answer your points in order,firstly I did not state that only Irish politicians have benefited from economic improvements and if you think that the infrastructure is crap now you should have seen it a few years ago.
Your comment about fuel smuggling puzzles me,as fuel is cheaper in the R.O.I. it is common sense that it is smuggled into Ulster though from what you have posted it seems that you are under the impression that people in the North are smuggling high priced fuel into the south to sell at cheaper prices thus incurring a net loss.
No doubt you were a little confused when you wrote that.
Also gangsters spend money,very,very often in the south and their money helps the southern economy no end and we’re not talking peanuts here.
Missed the accent over the E in Eire did I? (Oh look I did it again !)
Well that obviously negates the whole of my argument then,the mere fact that you’ve had to stoop to mentioning it suggests that you are desperate to score a point,any point to say the least.
I expect also that I could have made some judicous use of semi-colons aswell.
What an absaloute barbarian I am!
Yes I knew somebody would jump in with hoary old chestnut about "Ulster is etc.etc."but I posted it anyway,the reason I did this was because terrorists and their supporters have always tried to bully people into saying “The six counties” to give some sort of spurious legitimacy to their territorial claims in the north.
(And before you mention it I actually am aware that parts of the republic are north of Ulster.)
So in this case while it may not be technically correct I am quite happy to go along with the media and H.M.G. by saying Ulster,ULSTER, ULSTER,ULSTER !
And if that makes terrorists and their tacit supporters irate then I am more then happy to endure their wrath.
As to who would have invaded Ireland?
Well I expect that Nazi Germany desisted because of their great love of the Irish people and I’m sure the Warsaw pact would have left well alone even if they’d known that no one would have intervened,they were notorius for not occupying other peoples countries.
So jjimm I hope that I’ve helped clarify my post to you in terms that you can understand,I admit that I am guilty of expecting people to read more between the lines and taking as granted that most people would understand certain things without having to spell it out for them word by word.
Just aswell I dont have web cam or you could have picked me up for not combing my hair or being dressed in a manner that is objectionable to you.
From the naivety of of your post and the personal attacks on me one could almost believe that you were more motivated by a dislike of myself then by any genuine desire to make a point.
AnGadaididn’t mean to sound so condemning of the R.O.I. believe it or not I am actually an Erinofile(if thats the right word)and I love both the place and the people(But not the rain) and have visited all parts both North and South many,many times.
I am also a believer in a united Ireland.
But when I hear smug politicians of what ever nationality coming out with glib,self congratulatory slogans as per Celtic tiger it makes me snarky.
Also I did not mean to imply that jjimmis a tacit terrorist supporter,he is many things but of that he is not guilty.
You haven’t provided any cites for your assertions.
Well the point is that depending on fuel prices north or south that the flow of smuggled fuel changes. It is not exclusively a case of Irish criminals bringing fuel into the UK.
The term Celtic Tiger wasn’t coined by a politician but by a UK economist.
What you said was picked upon because this is GQ and relies on factual answers to questions.
Malin head is the most northerly part of the island of Ireland that I know and it is a part of both Ulster and the Republic of Ireland (being as it is, a part of Donegal).
Neither the mainstream media nor HM Government uses the term “Ulster” to refer to Northern Ireland, just Ulster Unionists and Loyalists.
Other things the Roman gave us was a unified language which derived into mutually somewhat-understandable languages later on, as well as its corresponding alphabet. And cultural exchanges were faster thanks to the existence of the Empire (even if some changes got stiffled because they went against that same Empire).
Pre-Roman colonies were also very good for both commercial and cultural exchange. Less bloodshed to create and keep them up, but then, “way back then” not every chunk of rock had a legal owner who’d yell at having a bunch of strangers try to build something there (as would happen if, say, a bunch of Germans tried to build their own village in the coast of Spain without paying the current landowners… no “current landowners” were involved when Cartago Nova or Ampurias were founded).
This is GQ. Please refrain from these kinds of needless and unwarranted personal jabs as well as the largely irrelevant political commentary. I am not issuing a warning yet, but I will do so if you continue in this vein.
L4L, you’ll understand my confusion, where you say:
When you had previously said:
By “their” I thought you meant the politicians’. I’m guessing you meant “Ireland’s”.
As for the Ulster thing - this is not a political statement, unless you believe that fighting terminological ignorance is a political move. Thank you for retracting your implication that I tacitly support terrorism. And I certainly was not asking you to use “the six counties”. Wouldn’t use it myself; I use the official terminology.
However when you use “Ulster” to describe “Northern Ireland” you are simply wrong. The UK government does not do this, and nor does the government of the Republic of Ireland. Look at your passport, that of “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. Perhaps the British armed forces do on an informal basis, but it is completely inaccurate: in addition to the counties of Northern Ireland, Ulster encompasses Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, all of which are in the Republic of Ireland.
Finally, though you imply that this is what I’m picking you up on, I’m not criticising you for omitting the fada - rather, I’m telling you that the word Éire is only used by people talking in the Irish language. Again, neither the UK nor the Irish government use this word when talking in English, and nor does anyone I’ve ever met in the Republic, even after a decade living there. They may print it on their stamps to confuse us all, but that’s the Paddies for you.
The rest of what you wrote, and I countered, is opinion only, so should probably should be abandoned in this forum.
