Did anyone else think the new Star Wars STANK

Yes, it sucked. Yes, it is a bad movie. Yes, it belongs in the bad movie pile.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but frankly, those holding the opinion that this was a good movie are wrong. I grant that you have the right to be wrong, but wrong you remain.

The acting was bad; though it is possible that it only looked so bad because the writing was terrible. Most of the principals have shown an ability to act elsewhere. The politics was boring. I fell asleep in a movie theater for the first time since I was a toddler. The action scenes weren’t nearly so good as people seem to be thinking. The colisseum battle was ok, but if these Jedi have the ability to move about giants blocks of rock, why don’t they just pick up all the robots coming at them and turn them around or something. Or maybe use the force to disconnect their batteries. But beyond the silliness of some pretty strange strategy decisions by the Jedi, it was poorly edited, giving almost no sense of space or danger.

The final fight with Yoda was cool, but essentially consisted of two alternating shots: Shot 1 is a closeup of Yoda or Dooku looking grim. Shot 2 is a wide fight shot in which Yoda is so small he is just a spinning green ball. Yeah, that’s exciting.

Anyway, I’m sorry you are gonig to take this personally Airbeck, but maybe it isn’t a problem of certain people being predisposed agains the film (I am a fan of the original three, and thought Episode 1 was decent barring Jar Jar) but that some people are way to eager to ejaculate over any Lucas offering.

Episode II was the worst movie that I’ve seen in theatres since Wild Wild West, and it only beats that one by a narrow margin. I won’t bother trashing the wooden acting, nausea-inducing dialogue (“I’ve been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life.”), shoddy special effects, worthless love story, or Jar Jar Binks because others have already covered those problems in detail. Let me just explain why I hated the second half of the movie.

Spoilers
In good action movies, such as ESB or Spiderman, you can’t just have nonstop action sequences. Between each major set piece, you need to give the audience a chance to catch their breath and adjust to the new setting before you begin the action again. But the last forty-five minutes of AotC is pure fighting with barely any interruption. It’s too much, and Lucas tried to squeeze in too many different scenes, which forced him to shorten the light-saber duel at the end. The movie would have been a lot better if he had taken out the big battle in the desert and possibly also the sequence in the droid factory. The battle scene didn’t make sense, anyway. We see the two armies fighting for a few minutes, then we’re informed that the Clone Troopers won, but we have no idea why or how they won. And the battle doesn’t really accomplish anything plotwise.

I think it’s worth looking at some of these things in greater detail to see where the problems might be arising. (To the extent that they are, anyway.)

Writing: At one time, people didn’t have any problems with Lucas’ writing. He did the bulk of the writing on his other features:

THX-1138 was written by Lucas with Walter Murch (whose only other writing credit is 1985’s Return to Oz) and an uncredited Ben Bova (whose contributions, as I understand, were not extensive).

American Graffiti was Lucas with Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck. Katz’s and Huyck’s resume includes such stinkers as Howard the Duck, Lucky Lady, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and Radioland Murders. So if you’re going to state that they rescued Lucas from bad writing, you’re going to have a hard time making that case.

Star Wars is credited to Lucas alone, although producer Gary Kurtz probably had some input. Still, the shooting script was pretty much Lucas and Lucas alone.

Empire is credited to Lawrence Kasdan and Leigh Brackett, with Lucas getting a story credit. According to Kasdan, in an interview in the L.A. Times last week, nothing from Brackett’s original draft remains in the final script, but they wanted to give her a credit. So that means the script was all Kasdan and Lucas.

Jedi, also, is credited to Kasdan with Lucas getting a story credit.

So it looks like, up through 1983, everything was pretty much Lucas or Lucas/Kasdan. So what happened to his writing abilities between 1983 and 1999? Not much, in my opinion. For TPM, it was all a solo job; for AOTC, he had the help of Jonathan Hales, who worked with Lucas on the Young Indiana Jones series and did the screenplay for The Scorpion King. Not a literary giant, but capable of writing a decent screenplay.

So I don’t think it’s fair to say that Lucas is a bad writer; his first three features, which he handled all or most of the writing for, are considered pretty damned good films if not classics. Maybe he’s lost it in that department, but I don’t think he’s completely lost it. I think a stronger argument can be made for . . .

Directing: Again, Lucas’ direction on his first three features is considered more than adequate. Not daring or groundbreaking, but far better than “competent,” and in spots a definite cut above his peers of the time.

In 1977, Lucas got into a snit with the Directors Guild of America. The DGA was unhappy that he had no credits at all at the beginning of Star Wars, and told him he had to add them or get fined. Lucas said that adding credits would screw up his whole concept of the movie, paid the fine, and quit the DGA. Although the success of SW allowed him enormous financial leverage over its sequels, Fox would not allow a non-DGA director to direct them, and Lucas was slightly less interested in directing at the time. So, he hired out the jobs.

Looking at the CV for Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, one could make a strong argument that their SW films were the best movies they directed. Kershner was a better-than-average journeyman with a couple of hits (The Eyes of Laura Mars, Return of a Man Called Horse) before getting ESB, but he also directed one of the worst of the James Bond movies. Marquand has done some good suspense stuff (Eye of the Needle, Jagged Edge) but he wasn’t top-tier by any stretch. So why were their entries in the SW pantheon better than their other movies? It would have to be the strength of the material and the franchise, for which credit has to be given to Lucas.

It’s no secret that Lucas doesn’t like working with actors–he never has. I think he’s capable of overcoming it, though. Certainly he did in Graffiti. But I think it’s a little too facile to write him off completely as a director. I think the direction in TPM was pretty creaky, and it showed Lucas’ discomfort behind the camera after such a long lapse. AOTC, though, was a little different animal.

In terms of working with actors, I think he’s no worse than he was before, but no better, either. And he’s putting big demands on his actors by having them do so much bluescreen work. But I wouldn’t want him to just go back to guys in rubber masks for the alien characters. He does use physical stand-ins during shooting (including using the voice actors themselves as much as possible), so the actors have an eyeline and someone to play off of. But, let’s face it–while the cantina scene and Jabba’s palace are fun, the aliens look pretty fake. I don’t think that, given the changes in technology since 1983 (let alone 1977) we could accept that level of fakery with nonhuman characters enough to adequately suspend disbelief.

Now, in terms of framing and shot selection, I think Lucas has improved a lot over TPM. There are only so many ways to shoot dialogue without getting overly artsy, and AOTC is dialogue-heavy. Nobody goes into an SW film expecting artsy direction. The very nature of the movies – as latter-day adventure serials – precludes artsy direction anyway. Some of the direction in the final battle scenes of AOTC struck me as a little better than what Lucas has done before: some handheld shots (or simulated handheld, anyway), fast zooms to take viewers into parts of the action (much like combat photographers in real life), a good sense of scale.

The CGI: This is a complaint I’m tired of hearing. A moviemaker decides to make his alien worlds fully populated, and look lived-in and used? Horrors! Would that more filmmakers paid that level of attention to things going on in the background. I didn’t find them distracting at all. I think Lucas has somewhat shot himself in the foot, though. I saw both the 35mm film projection and the digital projection, and the digital wins, hands down. The 35mm just isn’t capable of showing the effects the way they were shot. And even then, digital theaters are showing the movie at a lower resolution than it was shot at. He’s definitely letting the technology try to lead the marketplace rather than vice-versa, but that’s a minor complaint to me.

Lucas has said many times that, in his ideal world, the SW movies would be silent movies, with just the images and the music to tell the story. It’s my opinion that he’s skirting a little to close to that line, and allowing the dialogue and the performances to be more perfunctory than strictly necessary to achieve his vision.

In my own best-of-all-worlds scenario, he’d bring Kasdan, his most successful collaborator, aboard for Episode III, and direct it himself. I think he is capable of directing actors well, and I think with just the right screenplay, and the experience in front of bluescreens that came from working on AOTC, the actors could put more into it than George is asking for, satisfying him and themselves.

Phil, are you saying that the movie really couldn’t be that bad because 20 years ago, Lucas had great success inspite of fairly moderate talent? I think it probably wouldn’t be a huge stretch to say that the years haven’t been kind to Lucas, and what looked cool and cutting edge nearly 20 years ago looks hackneyed and trite now.
However, just because his “directing was considered more than adequate” with his first three movies doesn’t mean he didn’t have plenty of room for improvement. I honestly don’t believe he cares anymore. Back then he had something to prove…now it’s obvious he doesn’t really have to strive to impress anybody because, after all, he hit a chord with a bunch of teenagers in the early 80s and created a cult following.

I personally wouldn’t care how he shot the dialogue, if the dialogue wasn’t completely trite, boring, and clunky.

I think he is too, and probably always has been. The fact that he hasn’t though, to me, speaks volumes about how much he really respects his fans.
He’s like a one hit wonder.
Think of it this way Phil, if the Beatles, who made adequate music in 63-64, was still making the same type of music, complete with the same mistakes, and turning their own work into boring cliches, but added a few new “special effects”, in 1970, would you still be impressed with them? Would you defend them, pointint out the fact that inspite of the changing times and the evolution of music, their songs were actually decent ten years ago?

Of course, if I’m completely misunderstanding your position, due to the lateness of the hour and my own density, I do apologize.

Sure, Kasdan says Leigh Brackett’s script was thrown out, but do we believe him?

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is considered by many to be the best of the Star Wars films. Is it just a coincidence that it’s the one that had script input from Brackett?

Kasdan’s own excuse for why RETURN OF THE JEDI was not as good as EMPIRE was that it was the “third act” that had to resolve the story – a nonsensical explanation if there ever was one. Writing the second act is alwasy the stumbling block for actors. The resolutions of the third act allow for climaxes and payoffs that should guarantee entertainment.

A more logical explanation for EMPIRE’s superiority is pretty simple: it had input from a talented screenwriter and a talented director (Kirshner).

plg, I definitely understand where you’re coming from, and I don’t completely disagree with you. I’m just personally inclined to give Lucas some leeway because I’m a rabid fanboy. :smiley: I think there are other factors – like the fact that Rick McCallum is not Gary Kurtz, for one – that play into audience feeling about AOTC and TPM. Part of it is that I think Lucas’s story is too big for him, and he’s too close to it, but I’m willing to let him play it out and tell it the way he wants to.

ScriptAnalyst, I’m inclined to mostly believe Kasdan, only because his Empire work bears some similarity to his work on Raiders (particularly in the Han/Leia and Indy/Marion action), as well as some of his work from things like The Big Chill. My feeling – and I defer to you as a pro if you know better – is that some of Brackett’s story beats were kept, especially in the Han/Leia portions, but that the dialogue is pretty much all Kasdan’s, and the Luke/Vader stuff is all Lucas and Kasdan.

I also think that Marquand’s direction in the second half of Jedi is way better than Kershner’s in the first half of Empire, but that’s a matter of personal taste.

Shoot, I can understand that. I mean, afterall, (bringing the analogy of the Beatles back), I’ll defend all of McCartney’s work…even the really, really bad stuff. (Including his movie “Give My Regards to Broadstreet.”) :wink:

Thank you. Oh God, thank you for saying this. And thanks to all of you who admit to the simple fact that this movie was a steaming pile of shit. He brings his mother’s body back from the Tusken Raiders’ camp after going all Bob Kerry on their asses and tells his little girlfriend all about it. No reaction from her at all, except the whole “I’m here for you, cry on my shoulder” bit. I was like “If she sympathy-fucks him I’m walking out.”

And how about how some mysterious character - possibly a fallen Jedi master, possibly someone impersonating him, you just don’t know - ordered a clone army ten years ago for some completely unknown reason, so of course the entire Senate and the Jedi Council says “Oh! Yes! Let’s trust this new army we found lying around to be the new official Army of the Republic!” and nobody bats an eye!?!.

I could go on and on. I won’t though. Believe me, it breaks my heart, I love Star Wars. I really hope the man gets it together for the next one.

I just assumed genocide was an aphrodisiac…
“You killed little babies? Take me now!!”

Serial killers in prison get love letters all the time. Love doesn’t make sense. I could list about a dozen real life couples who are even less convincing and have less “chemistry” together. (Not to mention worse dialogue. :slight_smile: )

Rand, nobody in the film said anything even remotely like “Let’s trust this new army we found lying around”. Not even close. They were obviously suspicious of what was going on. The reason they used the army was that there was just no other alternative. Palpatine’s galactic chess game had forced them to make that move, whether they thought it was a good idea or not.

I don’t consider AotC a great movie, but it certainly wasn’t a bad movie. I think it’s the second best Star Wars movie yet, right after Empire Strikes Back.

I’d just like to add my voice to pretty much everybody else’s who thought this movie sucked.

I haven’t read every post carefully, but what I have read leaves me one thing to add: you can pack the most amazing action scenes wall to wall, they can be the best ever put on film, and as long as the audience doesn’t give a flying fuck about a single character in those scenes, the context in which they are being fought, or what the result of different outcomes would be, it’s meaningless. It’s crap. It’s a video game, and a really bad one at that.

stoid

PS: And the reason the audience doesn’t care is because the characters are cardboard, thanks to astonishingly bad writing and direction. Therefore, bad movie.

Quoth rand 100:

Except that the single person who makes the decision also happens to be one of the handful of people who does know where the army came from. There were, indeed, batted eyes, but by that time, it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.

Not that mysterious, actually. The name Sifo-Dyas was a last minute addition. It was originally Sido-Dyas (pronounced like…). I guess GL wanted to not make it so obvious, hence the “F”

Where, indeed, where these batted eyes? All I heard was thunderous applause when Palpatine declared that they were going to form an army of the Republic. I disagree that anyone was “obviously” suspicious of what was going on. Give me an example of where anyone showed the slightest sign of trepidation.

And HubZilla, I don’t understand. What does the “F” have to do with anything?

It was a MOVIE people.

Good or bad everyone’s (and I mean everyone’s) opinion is just that, an opinion. Where we are discussing any subjective measure (in this case how much we liked it) we can never be “right” or “wrong.” I have yet to hear of a movie that everyone likes or everyone hates our tastes differ too much.

Subjective nature doesn’t keep people from trying to state their opinion as fact. On both sides of the issue. So we get something like the following:

Calling someone wrong for an opinion on a subjective matter just begs for ridicule.
Having vented the above I offer my take on the flick (here be spoilers):

I suffer from over expectation, both good and bad. I didn’t catch the movie until June 3rd (with a newborn at home finding time to get out and do things really doesn’t happen much). By then I had already read several fan reviews both for and against and had a pretty good idea what many people liked and disliked about the movie.

Most people’s takes on it were:[ul]

  • Love Story = Bad
  • Yoda fight scene = Awesome
  • Opal wasn’t in it
  • The Politics occupied too much stage time[/ul]
    I went to the movie expecting the above but, in my opinion, the opposite was true in most cases.

The love story was clunky but more realistic than something slick would have been. Consider that you have, on one hand, a teenager who has been shielded (both by himself and by his training) from any type of romance up to this point in his life. And, on the other hand, a twenty-something who has been a political figure for most of her life. Not the stuff of slick romance. Any portrayal of my first stumbling steps in this direction would be far more painful than any of the Episode II love scenes.

The Yoda scene was not as good as I had been expecting. For me, Lord of the Rings wasn’t either. I did like LotR but, in my mind, it could never have lived up to the advance hype. Same story with Yoda.

The politics were a little long but I have enjoyed the shift from the simplistic Episodes 4-6 (must take out the bad guys) to the backstory (who are the bad guys and how do they get from here to there).

Having said the above I will say that I think Lucas did a good job but could have done better. There were also things I, personally, would have changed about Peter Jackson’s presentation of LotR.

Bottom Line: Good movie, not the my favorite in the series but, given how much I liked ESB, that would have been dificult.

I’d just like to add Threadkiller seems to have lived up to his name. This thing buried on page 2? Wowzers.

[sub]and my purely subjective, not right or wrong, but perfectly valid opinion bottom line: a barely mediocre movie that was completely painful in parts, a la Godzilla, but cool lookin’ in others. the end.[/sub]

Not so, the end. I have to say something. It sucked. Hard. Hated it.

I guess I am one of the few who thought the fight scene with Yoda was really stupid.

The special effects were way too special. It looked like a big expensive dumb cartoon.

I was thinking, “Go, bad guys. Kill all these loons.”

Sucked. Had to say it.

I didn’t like it either, for most of the reasons stated above. And I really WANTED to like it. I loved the original trilogy, but I didn’t go to see PM because I heard it was so awful.

But AOTC - terrible, because

No chemistry between Anakin and Amidala: the terrible romantic dialogue and the truly dreadful cliches (he falls off the (whatever it was), pretents to be hurt, she rushes to him . . .) does anyone take that seriously anymore?

The actor playing Anakin just wasn’t good enough. I had no feeling that this sulky adolescent had the potential to turn into Darth Vader.

WAY too much cgi.

Awful “comic relief”, e.g. C3PO’s jokes. Comic relief is ok in its place, but you can’t intercut it with your suspenseful life-threatening finale. Both threads detract from each other.

The “cute kid” Boba Fett. Why do they think we have to have a cute kid in each film? I have a terrible suspicion that somewhere in No. III Anakin or Kenobi are going to run into a roguish Correllian space trader with a cute son called Han.

Jar Jar. None at all is still too much. What WAS Lucas thinking of??

No, no. III is gonna have to be a LOT better than this.