Did Battlestar Galactica Jump the Shark?

I agree that the logical thing to do would be to establish martial law. I think the show is ultimately trying to show that humans emotions over logic can be our downfall and our redeeming quality. The cyclons are the opposite - the destroyed the 12 colonies based “logic” - that humans would eventually seek them out and wage war. The few that are showing emotions are going to be the downfall of the Cylons. Or something. I’m giving the writers a lot of credit and assuming they consider such themes.

I’m curious as to how you perceived the Pegasus vs. Galactica showdown. I thought it was an entirely plausible scenario (and good TV). That IMHO is directly addressing the idea that even with a common enemy in the background, the fleet is capable of self-destructing. At least till they show up and become an immediate threat, anyway. New Caprica seems to be the same…things are falling to pieces, divides are starting to show, no one seems to be as worried about the Cylons as they should be.

Prior to New Caprica, most of the survivors on these ships were more or less still what they were before the attack. If some disaster hit Earth, and the only survivors happened to be people in planes, you would have a disproportionate amount of certain kinds of people. Probably more business class people and less farmers, for example. I think the same kind of thing should be applied to BSG. There’s a luxury ship, which is filled with…who? Rich folks on vacation? There’s a refinery ship that’s filled with refinery workers. You are going to have patriotic people (almost all of the nuggets from season 1 (even Kat) came from the civilian ships) and you are going to have dopes. Apparently, there is a bunch of reporters. Maybe the CNN ship was part of the rag tag fugitive fleet.

Comment on season 3…

This gets addressed to some extent in “Dirty Hands.” Chief puts the union back together and gets Madame Airlock to agree to rotate jobs throughout the fleet, meaning that the suits on Colonial One and the press corps, take their turns with manual labor

I think keeping the civilians informed of what’s going on is important. I agree that, at times, there seems to be too many members of the press, but there’s only so many decks to be mopped. There’s been many scenes with folks huddled around radios waiting for news, having an idea of what’s going on is important to most of them…it gives the guy stuck on the refinery ship hope that there’s something else to life besides life inside a dirty ship. In other words, keeping the fleet informed is an honest day’s work.

The entire point of Tigh’s failure with martial law, and Adama putting the family back together is that humanity, flawed and diverse, has it’s best chance together.

A major element of the show’s conception is that the people in our ragtag fleet are not the cream of humanity’s crop. They’re ordinary people, deeply flawed. For frak’s sake, Galactica was on the verge of being mothballed; no wonder its crew was made up of slackers, washouts, malcontents, and otherwise marginal types, with half-assed attention to protocol and crappy discipline (e.g. Valerii fraternizing with Tyrol in the miniseries). Roslin was a low-level bureaucrat, hardly more than a policy functionary with a slightly bigger pair of balls than average (e.g. the episode where she stood up to Adar on the teacher strike). This bunch of jamokes survived through little more than luck, and now are doing the best that they can.

This is a hundred and eighty degrees from what we normally see in television SF, typified by Star Trek with its characters who graduated at or near the top of their classes or are unique human-alien hybrids or are the leading experts in theta-band radiation or whatever other specialness sets them apart. BSG gives us a gang of totally ordinary schmoes, the kind of people you honk at on the freeway every morning because they’re driving erratically with their knees on the bottom of the wheel to free their hands to spread cream cheese on their bagel. The only character who really qualifies as above-and-beyond-the-average is Starbuck, the best pilot, the best shot, the best strategist, etc., but beyond those qualities she’s more screwed up than anybody. It’s a very different conception of the SF setting (at least on television), and it takes some getting used to. Some people still criticize the show on those grounds; they’re missing the point.

That’s not to say the show is perfect, by any means. From week to week, especially during the third season, the quality fluctuates quite a bit. As mentioned, the third-season episode “The Woman King” (no major spoilers here, out of consideration for the OP), the one about Helo’s apparently quixotic championing of an underclass, is really, really bad. It’s bad because it’s an episode that goes nowhere and reveals nothing, right in the middle of a show that thrives on long-term storytelling and revels in changing up the situation from week to week. It’s bad because it takes complicated characters and simplifies them to archetypes for the purpose of telling a self-contained and disposable story. It’s bad because it presents a hugely contrived black-and-white conflict in what is normally a fairly nuanced shades-of-gray world. And it’s bad because it’s fucking boring.

But to criticize the show because its characters make stupid choices: man, that’s exactly what it’s about. You don’t have to like it, and in fact it’s unsurprising that a lot of people don’t like it — but to say that that’s somehow wrong is to miss the point, and to attack the show for failing to achieve something it was never interested in pursuing. First, one needs to understand what BSG is attempting to do, and then one can evaluate whether or not it succeeds at its goal. You can even argue that the objective itself is a waste of time. But to say that the show is bad because, basically, it isn’t a naturalistic version of Star Trek, which is where some people, including a very good friend of mine, are coming from — that’s simply not on point.

Consider, for example, the character of Roslin. Go back and look at her in the miniseries, and through the first season. She’s insecure. Tentative. Unsure of herself. Thrust unexpectedly into a position of enormous responsibility, and trying to measure up. Taking stands inconsistently, caving in elsewhere. Finding unexpected strength in herself. Learning. Growing. And then consider who she’s become in the last few episodes (again, no major spoilers here). She’s become colder. Harder. She’s closed off significant parts of herself. There’s a sureness to her, an arrogance, that wasn’t there in the first season. Having to make hard choice after hard choice has tempered her, yes, but it’s also given her a blind confidence in the rightness of her stewardship, and naked contempt for those who disagree with her. She was willing to monkey with an election at the end of season two; she’s gotten worse since then.

She is not, in the most superficial sense of the term, a hero. She has a leadership role, and she’s been right about things more often than not, though sometimes she’s right for the wrong reasons. She has as many negative qualities as positive. We are conditioned, through long experience with conventional narrative, to try to perceive her as a hero, to sanctify her and admire her, because her character is in charge and is responsible for keeping her followers safe and happy. But again, she is not, simply, a hero, a blandly parental whitewash of leadership, like Adama on the original 70s-era BSG. It would be more accurate, I think, to describe her as a survivor. The tension between what we viewers want to see in her, and who she actually is, powers a lot of my interest in the show, but at the same time creates anxiety for some in the audience, who feel that tension but mistakenly believe that it represents some sort of failing of the show. And again, you are certainly free to say that you aren’t interested in a show that refuses to let you worship its characters; that’s an individual preference, and your choice (and as noted above, it’s why a good friend of mine hates the show). But you need to make the distinction between criticizing the show for wanting to present flawed characters as an unworthy objective, versus criticizing the show for having flawed characters in the first place. The first is valid; the second is not.

And yet, behind this, there is great humanity and compassion behind the show’s cynicism, because one of the underlying themes is that despite whatever may be wrong with these people, whatever mistakes they make, however far they fall short of representing our imagined ideals of heroism, there is still nobility and honor in their efforts. Admiral Cain, I think most of us would agree, was not a particularly admirable human being, and yet Starbuck had a point when she said, at Cain’s funeral, that the Admiral made her choices, stood by them, didn’t second guess, and kept her people going, and that (in Starbuck’s opinion) they’d be better off with her than they will be without her. Is she right? Does the show, objectively, outside of the characters’ individual perceptions and philosophies, express a concrete opinion one way or the other? Isn’t it possible for every one of us, on at least some level, to identify with Cain’s choices and point of view? At the end of the day, is Cain any more or less a hero, or not a hero, than Roslin, or Adama? And isn’t it much more interesting to watch a show that simply puts that question out there, and doesn’t take a strong stand one way or the other, than to watch a show that simplifies its situations and characters in order to spoonfeed us the expected moral lessons?

On that last point, it may seem that the show is arguing one-sidedly for diversity of viewpoint, for democracy and democratic ideals and the rule of law, and arguing against militarism and dictatorship and the quashing of dissent. And yet: it was the democratic process, a free and fair election, that put Baltar into the office of the presidency. So, clearly, the show is not giving us an unvarnished partisan screed; it may have its slant, but it also plays fair. Well, most of the time; for example, the behavior of Adama and Roslin in “Dirty Hands” (no spoiler) was contrived to suit the needs of the story, and was resolved with virtually no motivation, making them seem almost bipolar. Likewise, the left-field exploration of a secondary character in “The Passage” was poorly handled, and makes the equally poorly handled setup of the resource crisis in the same episode look good in comparison. So the show doesn’t always get the balance right; sometimes they fall on their face.

But I’m not arguing that. What I’m arguing is, whether or not the show is succeeding from week to week (and I would agree that season three is far more frustratingly inconsistent than the previous two seasons), the things that it’s doing, the goals it’s pursuing, are eminently worthwhile, and give value to the show even when the individual installments land with a thud. The central narrative principles have remained solid from day one; the show has not compromised on its core artistic themes.

So, no. I don’t think Battlestar Galactica has jumped the shark.

Cervaise You raise good points. I didn’t start this thread as a criticism but as a genuine question. I was curious if I should bother emotionally investing in a show that seemed to go downhill rather rapidly after the death of Admiral Kane.

To put it into perspective, I was always rooting for Rosslyn and the Freedom of the people. UNTIL, Gaius Baltar killed a huge percentage of the human race AGAIN, this time in a manner that they had some circumstantial evidence reasonable enough to suspect him. This isn’t Colonel Tigh being overwhelmed by shoes he cannot fill. This is putting unreasonable trust in the number 1 suspect in the murder of half of the remaining humans.

This thread has been interesting and has made me feel better about a show that I fell in love with and was afraid was going daft. I am willing to accept that perhaps Adama is just a shitty leader. I like that in the final episode of Season 2.5 it was Lee Adama who was decisive while Bill Adama was just caught with his pants down.

Admiral Kane was a great character. She was just TOO Hard, and that was her problem. She didn’t give a thought to the long-term survival of the human race, only to her short term goals, as can be seen by her stripping the civilian ships and leaving them to die, not accounting for the need to ‘breed’.

The fact that I have lost faith in Adama’s leadership makes the show even more compelling. I was just afraid that it was going the disconnected episodic route where they would suddenly bring in a short term contrived ‘important issue’ episode that had no lead-in backstory.

Cervaise’s description is wonderful. Yes, these people are often quite stupid and incapable. That is what makes the show great.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I sometimes worry that my passion for the show interferes with my coherence. :slight_smile:

To be fair, there is some of this, and it bugs a lot of people, me included; I mentioned but did not detail a couple of examples from season three above. But also to be fair, while the consistency gets seriously wonky a couple of times, there are high points that, in my opinion at least, make watching the show entirely worthwhile. I would say, in fact, that the four episodes leading off season three are the equal of any four-episode run from anywhere in the series, and there’s a three-minute sequence in the fourth episode that is probably the very best three minutes of the entire series so far. Those who have seen it know what I’m talking about. :smiley:

Yeah, I’ve always termed these episodes “Starbuck Gets a Kitten”
As if it were an episode where she gets a pet and learns a lesson about responsibility.
But yeah, sometimes they just take an episode and make it it’s own separate thing. Now this can go down well if it somehow ties in to the bigger plot already, but other times it doesn’t work as well. A few examples…

Chief and his wife get stuck in the airlock

That was essentially a throw-away episode that worked well. It had action it had drama, it was very good. An example of where it didn’t work:

Oh, this one will have a few…
The Boxing Episode? Why? That was stupid
The episode where there’s suddenly a bar on Galactica? Where the hell did that come from?
Obviously the episode where everyone hates Helo
Then you finally come to the one called Black Market. I don’t know why that was written.

Regardless. It’s a cool show. When I first started with BSG, I downloaded them all off iTunes and watched the entire thing in less than a week. I’m totally serious. I was that enamoured with it then. But now…I want to go back and rewatch them before april, but I can’t find many episodes that are tolerable now.

A side question: I hadn’t been aware that the explosion of the nuke in orbit around New Caprica killed that many people. Did the survivor count go way down at that point? Or are posters upthread referring to the total number of killed/left behind during the Cylon occupation?

I made an estimation based on the notion that Cloud 9 was the most populous ship and it took out another half dozen ships with it. I made up a number that seemed reasonable.

The show is definitely one of the best shows ever to touch the small screen. It’s up there in my all-time faves category. Probably my favorite show ever. Which is why I had a vested interest in whether or not it Jumped the Shark. I might have ended up a very bitter and lonely man had I watched the show degenerate like a junkie who switched to crack because he just knew heroin was gonna kill him.

The best guess is the about 6000 or so were killed in the Cloud Nine Explosion. This is based on the survivor count given in LDYBPt2, the population of New Caprica, and the counts we get at the begining of season 3. It’s far from exact, but it’s safe to say the explosion killed about 10-15% of the population.