I don’t think so. Most of the people who believe a missile hit the Pentagon or that charges were in the World Trade Towers aren’t really interested in evidence. These are the same kinds of people who don’t believe anyone landed on the moon, that the Holocaust was faked, and that William Shatner doesn’t wear a wig despite the overwhelming evidence that these things occured. You just can’t reason with some people.
Marc
I, for one, am extremely interested in this evidence. Heck, if I’m mistaken about this, or anything else for that matter, I’d very much like to know as soon as humanly possible… fighting ignorance and all that. So far, I have not seen any evidence, reasoning or even attempts at either about these issues, just comments like “you can’t reason with some people” (which I believe I have already started echoing, sadly). I’m not trying to force people to read what has been written but if they haven’t, arguing about its validity is just silly.
Oh, and you take that slanderous filth about Cpt. Kirk back, you take it back right now! David Icke has shown me, beyond an inkling of a doubt, that his hair is 70% human, 30% reptilian and 100% real. You lying so-and-so.
I actually had someone on a Usenet group cite that to me as evidence that the Jews knew about it beforehand. 
Zev Steinhardt
The question then being, how much lead time would one need to get all the pieces in their proper places? I’d suggest that it might be pretty great in order to execute the vast and complex conspiracy required to steal such a large election - and to do it such that it remains pretty well concealed to this day despite lots of folks trying to pry the lid off. And then, apparently, the Bush Machine was able to do it not once, but twice. Preposterous.
Mmmm . . . Are you suggesting no jet ever hit the Pentagon? There was one that went missing, wasn’t there?
And, in a city full of shutterbug-tourists on any given day, why would the government be more likely than anyone else to have a picture of the event? Imagine the scene in the Pentagon:
COLONEL KORN: Omigod, there’s a jetliner heading straight for the building! Let’s get out of here!
MAJOR MAJOR: Just a minute, sir . . . I want to snap a picture . . . Let’s see, where’s my light-meter . . .
It takes one or two hackers with backdoor access, that’s all. Neither vast nor necessarily even a conspiracy, right?
After the fact, if the hackers didn’t get done in time, it takes a team of lawyers preventing the count from being completed, combined with a team of pols spinning public opinion. A Supreme Court with 5 partisan members helps but isn’t necessary. That isn’t a conspiracy either, just a coincidence of interests combined with unprincipledness.
Indeed.
By that reasoning, Watergate was impossible.
I am not saying I believe Republicans engineered thefts of the White House in 2000 and 2004. I’m only saying that the idea of stealing elections is not preposterous.
A series of low-grade B&E’s isn’t squat compared to theft of a national election. And you’ll note that even Nixon, who by all accounts, was a pretty intelligent guy (as contrasted with Dubya) wasn’t able to keep the lid on that.
What evidence? A lot of people saw the jet, there was plenty of physical evidence in the form of debris showing that it was a plane, they found the black box, and they found remains of passengers. Honestly, what more evidence do you need?
It’s true, you can only fight ignorance if the person you’re fighting wishes to be enlightened. There is no evidence that a missile hit the Pentagon and there’s no evidence of explosives that caused implosions anywhere near the World Trade Center.
Marc
What’s so preposterous about it (not about vote-rigging, about knowing Florida was going to be the key state)? Lots of people were talking about Florida before that election–its electoral votes, its population and their unpredictable political proclivities make it a critical state in any election. The Bush campaign knew it was going to be a close election and knew they couldn’t win without Florida, period. The Gore camp knew it, too. I wouldn’t pretend to offer evidence of malfeasance, but the state was definitely a huge target long before that November.
Watergate was a hell of a lot more than a “series of low-grade B&E’s.”
You think the stuff Nixon’s White House did, in order to get the Democratic candidate of their choice, is that much different than the possibility of intentionally removing probable Democratic voters from the rolls?
I just don’t see it.
“Pieces in their proper places”…you mean like having your brother as governor of the state in question? Would that count?
I agree with bup (that and I like saying “bup”). Much less preposterous is the idea of buying elections, which, depending on one’s views about how much money is built into our political sy$tem, could be equated with stealing. But then, if that’s true, we have a long and grand tradition of stealing elections in this country. I know people who still think Kennedy bought the 1960 election.
Watergate itself, is only the series of break-ins at the Democratic headquarters and the activities undertaken to cover those up. Gemstone, and all the other shit pulled by CREEP, (like the break-in at Ellsberg’s psychiatrist, the proposed fire-bombing of the Brookings Institute, Hunt’s fabricated documents implicating the Kennedy brothers in the assassination of Diem, the Huston Plan) is not Watergate. And like I said, you’ll notice that all of that crap came out eventually; they weren’t able to keep those worms in that can.
Look, the erroneous felon list in Florida happened. It is a well-documented fact. And, it may well have turned out to make a difference in Florida (because the election was so close that almost anything made a difference). Did they know in advance that things would come down to Florida? No…but they certainly knew it was amongst a small handful of the most important swing states…and many people would have ranked it #1. But, at any rate, I am not claiming a big conspiracy engineered by the Bush campaign. I am simply claiming that Katherine Harris worked her damndest to give the Republicans every advantage that they could get there.
As for 2004, I don’t think I made any claims about it (other than to point out that it was obvious what states would be most important there too). And, indeed, one saw some questionable tactics engaged in there in Ohio too although I haven’t seen any evidence that would lead me to believe they made enough of a difference to swing the election.
By your logic, we could presumably dismiss all the claims about potential problems in Illinois and Texas in the 1960 Presidential election out-of-hand because noone could know that it would come down to these two states and hence it would take an improbable vast conspiracy.
It wasn’t just the ChoicePoint list, there was a whole raft of problems in Florida, and I’m not talking about ambiguous stuff like hanging chads and the butterfly ballot. There was also the:
Unsigned absentee ballots which were allowed by kindly old Katherine Harris
All those Jewish voters in Miami Beach who “somehow” cast their ballots for Pat Buchanan
The “one-off” Supreme Court decision stifling the recount
And some random other stuff which was fought over tooth and nail on this board in the aftermath of the 2000 election. If you wanna argue the 2000 election, go back and read the damn threads. If you leave them thinking there is another word to be said on the topic, feel free. I find there is an obvious pattern of behavior on the part of the Republicans that clearly shows that they did not intend for Gore to carry the state, no matter what. UncleBeer will never see any such pattern. I don’t see much point in a rehash.
So who were those disenfranchised Florida misdemeanors?
Were they all ugly hippy girls cited for flag-burning in public squares?
Were they all ugly redneck brutes cited for gun permit violations?
Any reliable data which way would they swing?
Some. Insofar as demographics is predictive of voting behavior (which, let’s face it, it is, to a great extent). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File#Demographics_of_the_purge_list
Mmmm… no. BrainGlutton mentioned that all-knowing Snopes had talked about the Pentagon theory and, nonchalantly, I said I wasn’t too interested in said theory. I’m sorry if that offended you, somehow.
Did you even check before writing that? Try Prof. Jones. Or don’t–it’s all the same to me.
pinching bridge of nose
OK, we’ll use your narrow definition of Watergate.
That affects my point how? Purging voter rolls seems so much more unbelievable than all that stuff that did happen?
And purging voter rolls happened. Is it really ridiculous to think it may have been intentional?