Did Bush steal the 2000 election and allow 9/11 to happen

Great Debates
81

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

82

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

83

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

84

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

85

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

86

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

87

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

88

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

89

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

90

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

91

Maybe to influence voter turnout? Like you said, this had never happened before. Why are the democrats less suspect of foul play in your eyes than the republicans.

Read below.

Hint: I don’t post bullshit, Sport.

Let’s play it your way. You said that one of the tactics used by Bush in Florida was that Ellis presumptively called for Bush in some lame attempt to steer the election count. Yet you are flabbergasted that I would bring up the fact that Gore was presumptively called 7 hours before Bush’s 2am erroneous call. You know, when the voting was still going on in 75% of the country, including the same state it was called in without correction for 2 hours.

Here’s another hint:

NBC “lead the way” for calling for Gore before the polls closed based on bad data. All of the networks, including Fox, followed close behind.

Fox “lead the way” for calling for Bush at 2am based on more bad data> . All of the networks, within 5 minutes, followed.

So your argument is either bullshit or bad faith. And IIRC, both “always gets called”.

Keep up.

And, btw, there is a liberal party. I’ll have to say the capitol was a typo since it wasn’t obvious to you.

92

I don’t know how that happened.

93

Most conspiracy theories at least offer some motivation for the alleged conspirators. Yours doesn’t.

Gee, I dunno, maybe because the Republicans were in control of the process? :rolleyes:

You just did. You have a cite for lower turnout in the Panhandle than the rest of the state, but not for it being the result of the time of the TV call, nor in fact any mention of that at all. No wonder - you’re claiming, as I noted, that 15,000+ GOP voters were still at home with 11 minutes to go, before deciding not to bother. You don’t have a cite for that, because it’s bullshit.

Nope, the Gore call was made by Voter News Service, based on the soundest information available, the exit polls. The Fox call was made by the Bush campaign, based on no new information whatsoever.

A. Every state is called when it’s clear who won it to the caller, no matter what time zone, even if voting is still going on when the overall election is decided. Happens every time, sport. B. Since it still isn’t clear to you, the VNS exit-poll-based call for Gore in FL was correct.

Already discussed that. VNS gave its call to all the nets simultaneously, and they reported it nearly simultaneously. You do have a point, don’t you?

With the person doing the calling, Bush’s cousin, in constant discussion with the campaign for several hours preceding.

To their disgrace. Monkey see, monkey do in that industry.

Where?

94

Elvis, You made an absolutey false statement about the first link I provided and you totally ignored the second link with “based on no new information whatsoever” garbage.

Again, you just show your propensity for arguing in bad faith. Until your read the links I provided, or your reading comprehension skills rise to the level with the rest of us, I amnot going to waste any more time with you…

95

No, it’s true. I read it, but it doesn’t look like you did. Perhaps you could quote the relevant passage?

That also is true. The Fox/Bush Campaign call was indeed based on no new information whatsoever. If you know better, you’re not saying so.

[qhuote]Again, you just show your propensity for arguing in bad faith
[/QUOTE]
If you have facts, start providing them, chum. All this whining doesn’t convince anyone else that you’re right.

When come back, bring argument.

96

That is what I called your false statement, and since you said you actually read it I will amend that to a blatant lie.

My entire link, from top to bottom, was about nothing but the new information that the Bush call was based on.

Learn to read what is provided to you, Sparky. Although I doubt I will waste my time again with someone who argues in bad faith as you do.

97

No substantiation of that claim at all there, as I said, merely repetition.

Time for a reality check: Do you really think that there were 15,000 people in Pensacola still sitting at home, in front of their TV’s, with 11 minutes before deadline, thinking “Gee, I’d better go vote now” and presumably racing out the door, when the call came, and they decided not “Ah, shit, it don’t matter now anyway”? Don’t you think that by now more than one (1) of them just might have come forward to say that’s what happened? Or are you more convinced by a web site that happens to tell you what you want to hear? There is no evidence whatsoever that those 11 minutes depressed the Bush turnout by more than 1 vote. Got it now?

If your claim is that the Bush/Fox call was made based on obvious bullshit numbers (which you call “new information”) rather than political calculation, perhaps I ought to just let you have that one. :slight_smile:

Or you could help yourself and apply a reality test to that one too - isn’t it more likely that the Bush campaign and its propaganda arm had already decided what to do, and were looking for an excuse? Isn’t the way they found a bullshit excuse to start a predecided war in Iraq part of the same pattern?
You come back but you no bring argument. You try harder next time.

98

Why, in your convoluted little world, would people have to be sitting at home to hear the news? Do they not have radios where you come from? Do people not tell others when they hear news that waiting in a line that it is futile because the vote is already decided?

It was erronious data, goddammit. No more political than the original erronious call. Want to know why? Because they came from the same fucking source, VNS.

No, someone would have to apply your conspiracy test along with a good helping of the “republicans are evil” psychosis, wich you seem to have a heaping helping of. And there will not be a next time because I have better things to do that play your silly games.

99

Wait a minute. Karl Rove called up Fox News and ordered them to say that Bush had won in Florida, even though in reality the state was too close to call. Is that (or reasonable facsimile thereof) correct? And this is part of “stealing the election”?

Look, even if Fox News “called” Florida for Bush because they supported Bush, it still isn’t stealing the election. Let’s stipulate that Fox news is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican National Convention for a moment. How does their biased reporting “steal” the election?

It created a public perception that Bush won, and therefore provided cover for later shenanegins? Even if the Fox report is innacurate, why exactly did the other networks fall in line? And even so, why didn’t the later report that Florida actually was too close to call make it all moot?

Anyway, this horse is over and done. The basic problem is that the Florida election was what we call very very close. Usually elections have such a wide margin of victory that exactly who was purged from the voting lists for felonies, exactly which ballots were spoiled, and all that controversy DON’T MATTER. Of course, we had a very similar situation happen here in the Washington state governor’s election…the final hinged on only a few hundred ballots. And this is complete with boxes of uncounted votes suddenly being discovered in the basement of the King County election office, disputed voting lists, etc. I don’t think there’s any way to make both sides happy with the results in cases like these, because even minor changes in intrepretations of election law will change the outcome, and in these particular cases both sides weren’t interpreting the law behind a veil of ignorance, both knew which interpretations would give them victory and which would make them lose.

Now, can’t we get back to the more important point, which is debunking the 9/11 conspiracy charges?

100

AFAIKnow - Your cite that 15,000 people didn’t vote because of the 11-minute early call is based on at least one huge, false, assumption - that people in all areas of a state turn out in similar numbers.

I mean, your cite simply says that the western part of the state turned out at 65%, whereas statewide it was 68%. It then makes the huge extrapolation that there should have been 3% more people there voting, or 15,000.

I don’t buy it, and I’m looking for what typical panhandle turnout is as compared to the rest of Florida.

So far I’ve found that Gadsden County didn’t count 1,951 votes in a mostly black area.

And a cool link that has nothing to do with this that Bush got more votes in Florida in 2004 than there are Republicans in Florida, and in 15 counties, he got votes more than twice the number of Republicans.