Did Congress really subpoena a brain dead person? (Terri Schiavo)

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@1010011010

Apparently the woman goes in and out of vegetative states. The last couple of times she’s lapsed into one her husband has tried to pull the plug (and succeeded on a couple of occassions), but her biological family have in the past successfully fought and had her put back on life support.

This is incorrect. She does not go “out” of vegetative states. She has no cerebral cortex. She is permamnently brain dead.
[quoet]Hopefully, the good that will come out of this is an acknowledgement that removing someone’s feeding tube so they can starve to death over the course of a week or two isn’t the most humane way to do it… and the opening of better alternatives.
[/QUOTE]

In this case, it is completely humane. She has no ability to suffer.

[CurtC]

Now that we’re in GD, I can offer a little more about how I feel. There is something dreadfully inhumane going on here - it’s what the state of Florida has been doing to Mr. Schiavo. His wife has been dead for years, but he isn’t allowed to move on because technology can keep her corpse fresh.

[Fear_Itself]

This is a terrible precedent, and deserves to be struck down by the appropriate court. If Congress is allowed to get away with this, what is to prevent them from sending subpoenas to unborn fetuses, in an attempt to prevent abortions? I see very little difference between Terri and a fetus; both are dependent, their rights are in the care of others, and they cannot speak for themselves. That a fetus is not legally a person seems to have little effect of those in Congress who are determined to ban abortions; they have already succeeded in passing laws that make killing a fetus in the commission of a crime equivalent to murder.

[bizzwire]

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I just faxed Tom Davis to remind him that his loyalty to the Constitution of the United States trumps his loyalty to either his party or his church. I also reminded him of the separation of church and state,; soomething I learned in elementary school.

[gratuitous slam]I thought that conservatives believed that the government shouldn’t meddle in peoples personal affairs. [/gratuitous slam]

[Marley23]

I’m pretty sure I have all this right: she is not in a coma. She IS very severely brain-damaged and in a persistent vegetative state. I’m pretty sure she’s not brain dead. The difference is that she is not unconscious has some brain activity. Most of her brain, including the parts that make her ‘her,’ are long gone.

I actually heard on ESPN, regarding baseball, that it’s been something like 20 years since anyone was held in contempt of Congress.

@1010011010

The last couple of times she’s lapsed into one her husband has tried to pull the plug (and succeeded on a couple of occassions), but her biological family have in the past successfully fought and had her put back on life support.

You’re incorrect about ‘lapsing,’ she’s a vegetable for good. What the parents has done successfully is have the removal of the tube delayed a few times while they brought motion after motion, all ultimately turned down by Judge Greer or higher courts. In 2003 the tube was actually removed for a few days before Florida stepped in with a law that was ruled unconstitutional.

[CurtC]

bizzwire, I’m trying to follow you. Is there something in the Constitution that would prevent the US Congress from making law based on this case? And if it is, isn’t it the job of the courts to toss out any law which conflicts with the Constitution?

And what does this have to do with the separation of church and state? I mean, I strongly disagree with them, but I can see that it’s possible to view her as still alive, and deserving of protections the law gives us all. In that view, saving someone from murder isn’t “meddling in peoples personal affairs.”

I think you’d be much more effective in convincing Mr. Davis that since Ms. Schiavo’s cerebral cortex is dead, the person that she was is dead, and letting her body die is the kindest thing to all. Your rant doesn’t make much sense.

[Apos]

I had a vision of that dancing Six Flags old guy taking the tube out, putting it back in, taking it out again, and so on, all to the tune of his stupid dancing song. It’s bizarre the lengths we’ll go to flog the dead or dying.

[Fear_Itself]

You might want to tell the Schindler’s lawayer; he was just on the TV news speaking to the press. Her claimed he had visited Terri several times today, and described her as animated, chatty and very responsive.

It’s a Festivus miracle!

[lawoot]

It’s not that Congress did it, it’s the WAY tha they did it.

We are going to subpoena you - and since you are in a vegetative state, you have to do this in YOUR ‘home’. We are coming to you, you have no right to stop us. You’d better still be alive when we get there, or we are going to punish your caregivers.

Aren’t you just PROUD to be livingin the United States, where the people are free?

[1010011010]

@CurtC

You got a cite for that “goes in and out” part? My take on his case is that she is in a persistent vegetative state, and “persistent” is incompatible with “in and out.”

I’m going to wager my memory of a CNN broadcast isn’t good enough? They were showing pictures of her in a wheelchair (presumably post whatever caused her current ills) but apparently more alert and “with it” than in the video clip they show over and over.

Also, her current state being ruled as “persistent” is in no way incompatible with her having previously gone “in and out” of a vegetative state.

Note: this was a claim made by the family… grain of salt and all that. It could just be that THEIR doctors say she’s not in a PVS… and then HIS doctors say she is in a PVS… and then THEIR doctors… etc.

[bizzwire]

@CurtC

bizzwire, I’m trying to follow you. Is there something in the Constitution that would prevent the US Congress from making law based on this case? And if it is, isn’t it the job of the courts to toss out any law which conflicts with the Constitution?

And what does this have to do with the separation of church and state? I mean, I strongly disagree with them, but I can see that it’s possible to view her as still alive, and deserving of protections the law gives us all. In that view, saving someone from murder isn’t “meddling in peoples personal affairs.”

I think you’d be much more effective in convincing Mr. Davis that since Ms. Schiavo’s cerebral cortex is dead, the person that she was is dead, and letting her body die is the kindest thing to all. Your rant doesn’t make much sense.

Guilty on all counts. I was painting with a very broad brush; it just seems that all of the opposition, all the intrusion into this intensely private affair, seems to be coming from the evangelical right. I can’t for the life of me understand on what grounds the house of representatives chose to butt into this particular affair, and view this as further evidence of the blurring distinction between Church and State (eg, 10 commandments displays, proposals for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, “creation science” to be part of school curricula).

I see smoke, I think fire.

[Apos]

Over the past decade or so, her brain has been slowly decaying into goo. Even if there is some lizard brain there that can twitch muscles in a way that the deluded can coo over, there is clearly no sensible way that any semblance of a consciously responding human being is in there. Those parts of her brain are, quite litterally, gone. They place they were is now filled with CSF. For the uninitiated: that’s goo. Not brain.

[Marley23]

@1010011010

Note: this was a claim made by the family… grain of salt and all that. It could just be that THEIR doctors say she’s not in a PVS… and then HIS doctors say she is in a PVS… and then THEIR doctors… etc.

It’s not. Independent, court-appointed doctors all say it’s a PVS. Doctors hired by the family are the only ones who say otherwis.

[kung_fu_lola]

@Marley23

It’s not. Independent, court-appointed doctors all say it’s a PVS. Doctors hired by the family are the only ones who say otherwis.

Also, there have been allegations that the family-appointed docs are not permitted to examine Terri the way that the court-appointed docs have, and that they may be basing some of their conclusions on heavily-edited videotapes of Terri.

[ouryL]

Say I have an idea!
Let’s subpoena God and ask him personally!

[Whack-a-Mole]

@1010011010

Note: this was a claim made by the family… grain of salt and all that. It could just be that THEIR doctors say she’s not in a PVS… and then HIS doctors say she is in a PVS… and then THEIR doctors… etc.

Not sure how reliable the following quotes are but the person writing this Blog seems to be straightforward in what he does and does not know. (I know the quote below seems longish but I think it falls within Board rules regarding the percentage allowable form the source material)

The Second District’s first opinion in this case explained:

Since 1990, Theresa has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs.

In a later opinion in the same case, the Second District further explained:

Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo's brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex.

<snip>
What about the Schindlers’ claims that Terri is conscious and responds to stimulation?

When the Second District first reviewed the trial court’s decision that Terri would chose not to live under her present circumstances, the appellate court expressed no reservations when it explained that Terri was and “will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others…” In October, 2002, as a result of Terri’s parents’ claims that treatment options offered promise to restore some of Terri’s cognitive functioning, the Second District ordered the trial court to hold a trial on that issue. The trial court did so, and in the course of that trial the parties litigated whether Terri is in a persistent vegetative state.

The trial court heard testimony from five experts: two selected by Michael, two selected by the Schindlers, and one independent expert selected by the trial court. The two experts selected by Michael and the independent expert agreed that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and that her actions were limited to mere reflexes. The two experts chosen by the Schindlers disagreed, but the trial court found their positions not credible. For instance, the trial court explained:

At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terry Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schindler tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli.

The experts also disagreed about whether any treatment could improve Terri’s condition. The two experts selected by the Schindlers each proposed a potential therapy method, but the trial court rejected both of them based on “the total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature.”

Affirming those decisions, the Second District explained that it, too, reviewed the videotapes of Terri in their entirety as well as Terri’s brain scans. The appellate court explained that it not only affirmed the decision but that, were it to review the evidence and make its own decision, the court would reach the same result reached by the trial court.

SOURCE: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#qanda

[aruvqan]

@Fear Itself

I see very little difference between Terri and a fetus; both are dependent, their rights are in the care of others, and they cannot speak for themselves

I see a big difference…a fetus will probably eventually turn into a person with consciousness and volition. Terri Schiavo will not. her brain has a brainstem and goop. Nothing will ever bring her back unless you can transplant some sort of miracle fetus brain cells and force them to integrate in some SciFi-ish manner…and at that point who is to say that there is anything of her left in there to fill the brain?

Note, I am NOT going to consider that any given foetus may accidently suffer some sort of brain damage in the pregnancy/birth process, or has some genetic problem…I mean HEALTHY normal fetus with no genetic problems and no pregnancy/birth problems.

[Valgard]

The subpoena was evidently for Terry Schiavo and her husband to appear before Congress as “expert witnesses”.

Since we are now in GD I have all the sympathy in the world for her parents and siblings and also for her husband but good God, she has been in a coma for 15 years, her brain is literally disintegrating and according to her husband, who is her court-appointed guardian, she said that she wouldn’t want to be kept alive this way.

I’m coming down on the “death with dignity” side of this one.

The machinations by some FL legislators, Governor Bush and some members of the Senate are just creepy and intrusive. How about a subpoena to my dead grandfather to come testify about care of stroke victims?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@1010011010

I’m going to wager my memory of a CNN broadcast isn’t good enough? They were showing pictures of her in a wheelchair (presumably post whatever caused her current ills) but apparently more alert and “with it” than in the video clip they show over and over.

You must have dreamed it or be confusing her with somebody else. There is no such video.
[qiote]Also, her current state being ruled as “persistent” is in no way incompatible with her having previously gone “in and out” of a vegetative state.
[/quote]

There has never been a single moment when she has ever “come out of it.”

Note: this was a claim made by the family… grain of salt and all that. It could just be that THEIR doctors say she’s not in a PVS… and then HIS doctors say she is in a PVS… and then THEIR doctors… etc.

Independent doctors appointed by the courts have diagnosed the PVS. The only docs who have ever tried to argue that Terri is not permanently brain dead are the prostitutes paid for by the parents. The matter is not especially subjective. The woman’s brain has liquified in her skull. There is nothing there to rehabilitate. There is nothing that can think, feel or remember.

[Cat_Fight]

Oh man, did anyone catch which politician announced on CNN that human life overrode the “sanctity of marriage”? I wonder, would she be allowed to die if her lesbian lover were trying to keep her alive?