End of life. Do we need a test?

OK, some more thoughts on the Schiavo case have occured to me. The biggest one being this.

At what point can we say a person is no longer a living person?

I’ve seen all sides of the case but keep noticing more and more arguments that Terri is, as one Doper put it, little more than a plush toy. Some of these people demand she die because she’ll never be a thinking, cognitive, intelligent person again. So is that the basis of someone’s worthiness to live?

From what I understand, in the strict medical sense, she is alive but can’t eat. The feeding tube is what is keeping her alive. Christopher Reeve needed a machine to keep his lungs operating and he was considered a hero. Was the difference that he could demonstrate cognitive thought, and more important, speech?

How about people in coma’s? Many of them can survive on their own as long as there’s a feeding tube. At what point do we decide that they aren’t getting better and pull the plug? I can tell you. It’s the point where the law is set by precedent that they aren’t going to get better.

This isn’t about Terri alone, it’s a fight over protecting the lives of those whom can’t decide whether or not to die. This is just the most well-known example used in debate. The difference is, Congress is in a position to write legislation, whereas we’re posting to a message board. But either way there’s debateable points, and I’d hope we take care to consider them in a more careful and less political way.
But my question stands, Should we base a person’s right to a feeding tube based on an I.Q. test?

Well, my understanding of the difference between coma and PVS is that someone in a coma can potentially recover, whereas someone like Terri Schiavo is so far gone that her brain is… I don’t know, atrophied or something. Most of it literally isn’t there anymore. I think someone in another thread said that the parts of her brain that are gone have been replaced by some kind of fluid. The only parts that remain are the parts—the cerebellum, maybe (It’s been a while since high school biology)—that control things like breathing and the beating of the heart. If this is the case, then there’s no way she’s consciously aware of anything at all. There is no “conscious”. And her brain isn’t going to start regrowing itself, so she’ll never recover.

This is very poorly worded. People want Terri to die because we are as sure as we can ever be that she would not want to live knowing that she will never be a thinking, cognitive, intelligent person again. No one is demanding that she die just because of these things; you are welcome to prove me wrong.

The difference is that he was able to participate in his life, while Terri Schiavo is not.

There are studies stacked up on studies about prognostic signs in coma patients, and neurologists usually have a good idea of a patient’s chances of recovery. Whether to push on or withdraw care should always be made between the doctor and the patient’s family, not by the government.

No; if we believe that the patient would want to be kept alive as long as mechanical means will allow it, or if the patient’s wishes cannot be determined at all and the family wants to go on indefinitely, even with no I.Q. whatsoever, then we should do what we can to make that happen.

I hope you can see a difference, though, between someone with a low IQ and Terri Schiavo, who truly has no IQ because she lacks consciousness.

IQ tests are pretty worthless, but leaving that aside, consciousness is an issue, and so is quality of life. Somebody without a higher brain does not have either. Terri has a brain stem and that’s it. In fact, maybe the example of IQ tests raise a good point: you need to be aware of the world around you to take one. Zero awareness is not a bad practical point to make that distinction.

There is no dispute to be had, in my mind, that Terri Schiavo is alive. Her body is plainly still functioning in an extremely limited way. Because her brain is gone, the individual who had Terri’s personality, or conciousness, or whatever term you like, however, has been dead for fifteen years. When people talk about life, generally speaking that is what they have in mind: thoughts. Not functions that continue automatically like breathing and a pulse. They want their conscious mind to continue to exist so they can be a part of, interact with, and appreciate the world around them. I don’t think it’s wrong to say it the way most people in the other threads have expressed it (their words vary of course): she is practically dead. If it’s better for me to split hairs, Terri Schiavo alive and everything that made Terri Schiavo “Terri Schiavo” is dead. The person is dead, the corpus happens to still be going by way of freak circumstances.

I disagree with your comment about Christopher Reeve’s speech. It’s not that hard to tell whether someone understands you or not even if they can’t speak to you. In fact, sometimes they speak to mask their understanding. :wink:

No one is ‘demanding that she die,’ the issue is about allowing her to die. Even if you reject the evidence that’s what she would have wanted [the entire basis for the court rulings of the last five years], what remains for her, and objectively, who would want it if they were given the choice, ‘die or live like this?’ Same thing she’s endured for the last 15 years: some nagging health problems, no awareness of her surroundings, the feeding/hydration tube, the urine tube, digital stimulation to make her crap in her diapers, brain rotting in her head, no chance at recovering any level of consciousness. Quality of life is an important idea for people, and even unscientific TV polls show you’ll find few who would want to go on like this.

I do think consciousnes of the outside world is where most people draw the line, and while a number of people here seem to have issues with the idea of drawling lines, I think that’s reasonable. People in a lasting coma don’t have awareness of the world either.

Could you rephrase this? I don’t understand. Unless I’m very underinformed there is no legal point where the law says “they aren’t going to get better.” Nor is there a point where the law says “because they are not going to get better, you have to pull the plug.” Whoever is charged with making the decision gets advice from the doctors about whether the comatose person could get better or not and what is likely to happen. The law doesn’t enter into it except for the fact that everyone is entitled to refuse medical care, and if the person who is being treated is not able to make that decision, someone else does.

I don’t think anyone is making judgments about what kind of people should live or die; your OP implies someone is advocating euthanasia of the disabled and the question is “who is disabled enough?” That’s the same ‘rights of the disabled’ rhetoric some rightward elements have dishonestly tried shoehorn into this debate. It’s more about what kind of circumstances those people themselves would prefer to live or die in. I would rather be dead than live as Terri Shiavo is, and the next time I’m in New York in about a month, I’ll sign a document to that effect. So will my mother.

A lot of people are, actually. Just take a look at one of the dozen pit threads and count how many times someone says something along the lines of “she’s just a vegetable, just kill her already.” These people don’t care about Terri’s wishes either.

I’m posting in many of them and they’re saying that because they know what her stated wishes were.

I’m going to hit on a post from** DocJ** next that may sound familiar. My point of this thread is to point out that this is a case of a single person that has ramifications for years to come. And whatever is decided, no matter the forum, body or state, it will affect all Americans.

In some ways I don’t think it will. It may have an impact on the political landscape, but the courts have ruled the same thing over and over again in this case, and ultimately, they’ll toss out this morning’s law and the legal procedure in these cases will stay the same. Although I’m guessing people will start taking the process seriously and more will start making their wishes clearer on paper.

This, IMO, is what the fight is over. OK, let’s do it this way.

  1. If I were Terri, I’d want to die.

  2. If I were to tell my spouse I’d want to die, but not my parents because of their religious beliefs, I’d make sure to sign a living will, or document it somehow, instead of paying lip service to it and hoping for the best. Mentally ill as I’ve seen put forth?

  3. If I’m suicidal and mentally ill, maybe I don’t know what I want. Maybe I do. (This is, obviously a case by case basis). But certainly not something I’d want a judge to decide. Leave it in the hands of my relatives whom don’t have any financial stake in it.

That said.

This debate isn’t about Schiavo alone. It’s more about the threshold of when it’s right to “let” someone die. The quotes are used because this will be considered a watershed case in the future. Anyone deluded enough to think this will end with her death is kidding themselves.

I knew my OP wouldn’t get to the heart of what I wanted debated, they rarely ever do. What I want to know is, at what point should we say, “That person isn’t contributing or aware, pull the plug.”?

First, I agree on the courts.

Second, I think the written wishes will be the main benefit of this shitstorm.

This is a simple question not worthy of its own thread and you seem to be keeping an eye on this one so I’ll ask it here:

Do you have any idea why she wasn’t pronounced? I was under the impression that zipola brain function was all you needed.
And Duffer, I think you are right about the main benefit. Right now spouses across the country are saying, “Please don’t let this happen to me!”

She doesn’t have zero brain activity. Her brain stem works, at least somewhat. She lost oxygen to her brain for about six minutes and never regained consciousness, and now she can never do that.

There is a consciousness without the brain. we are spiritual in nature. I thought I would bring this into the debate because it is appropriate. Depending on the research between 76% and 90% of Americans believe they have a soul and will enjoy an after life. There has been a lot of research on “near death experiences” lately that show consciousness can exist without the brain. So this makes a big difference on how we determine who is dead. Some patients have “woke up” hours after they were pronounced dead by doctors.

In the recent months two TV documentaries were shown and a DVD is to be released in April showing the recent research. I know that scientists and skeptics have dismissed the “spiritual” research, but it is continuing nevertheless and becoming more positive for the spiritual. Before long, I believe, the data will be to large to dismiss.

It is because of this data Terri should not be written off, there is a lot we don’t know about consciousness, and death.

I will leave some links, and if someone is interested in learning more they can search Google or MSN for thousands of more links.

http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/6,2.htm

http://www.newsnet5.com/station/2893543/detail.html

http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm

Until then, you’re dismissed. :wink:

Thank you, your Lordship.

:stuck_out_tongue:

Well, you know, it’s one of those things. I find myself wanting to respond to your posts, but I know a serious, considered rebuttal with scientific evidence would be a waste of time.

For me, it’s really a question of who decides what happens with a person’s remains after they die. Because Terry Shaivo the person is, from all accounts, no longer existant, and will never exist again, CAN never exist again. (unless there’s an afterlife, natch, and we cannot predict that).

I don’t have much attachment to these mortal remains: if my body is fed to pigs after I die, it won’t upset me. I’ll be dead, and incapable of being upset.

But a lot of people DO care what happens to their bodies after they die. It would upset them while they lived to see other folks’ wishes dismissed after other folks die; therefore, in order to keep the living happy, I think we ought to respect the wishes of the deceased.

Does that make sense?

Terry is, as near as I can tell, deceased. The body that’s functioning in a hospital bed has none of her desires, her interests, her emotions, her fears, her memories–nothing of her at all–in it anymore. So the question is, how would she want her remains dealt with in such a case?

The best evidence seems to be that she wouldn’t want her remains to be kept artificially functioning. I believe that we should respect that out of respect for the living.

In answer to your question, duffer (which, incidentally, I appreciate your phrasing without taking a political potshot), I believe we should judge whether a Person is alive–as opposed to a Body’s being alive–by whether there is any realistic chance of that Person’s experiencing sentience in the future, coupled with their having experienced sentience in the past. Sentience in this case includes having a sense of self, a memory, emotions, interests, and desires.

If a being EITHER has never experienced sentience before OR can never experience sentience again, then I believe we have no moral duties to that being: instead, we have moral duties toward other beings which may indirectly determine what we should do as concerns that being.

Daniel

If your heart beats and you breathe, they can’t really declare you dead-dead, can they? Viable organ donor, sure, but otherwise they’re not going to suffocate you with a pillow or anything to get those two functions to stop.

You’re considering what her wishes were, but what I’m saying is don’t automatically assume everyone does simply because they’re on Michael’s side. A lot of people want her to die because she’s gross looking and a drain on society (I’ve personally talked to quite a few).

The problem with your question is that it appears to be poorly worded. First, the Terri Schiavo case is not simply about anyone wanting to “pull the plug” because she is not contributing or aware, but rather because it is her wishes, and the fact that she is brain dead, with no possible chance for any recovery. Second, I have not heard anyone debate that we should ever kill someone because they are not contributing or aware.

I think many are unsure what you are trying to ask.