I totally disagree with the OP that this is the nature of the debate. This is the nature of the debate as a very small segment of very vocal political operatives is trying to frame it. But it is not about this, not in the slightest.
There is a clear line for resolution of the important “who shall live who shall die” question. First, establish that the patient is alive. In Texas, if a patient triggers a vent (even attempts to take a breath) at least once in IIRC 2 minutes, then that patient is not brain dead.
Next, it always comes down to a patient’s desire. The easiest way to determine this is living will. If this is not determined, then a group of medical professionals, social workers, and clergy if necessary, try to infer this decision by conference with the patient’s relatives. The spouse has primacy, followed by the children, then the parents. In some cases (and now in Texas), medical opinion may get a hearing as well. If there is a significant debate, the courts can intervence and try to establish a neutral finding of the patient’s intent, sometimes by appointment of a guardian ad litem.
This is how it stands, this is how it works in every case in this country. This is how it worked in the Schiavo case. So duffer, your OP is answered. There is a set of rules, it does not depend on IQ, and it depends entirely on a patient’s wishes. Nobody is trying to dictate that the disabled, or the comatose, or even the PVS need to be killed. The only people asking for medical intervention to be cease on Schiavo are doing so because they believe this is what she would have wanted.
If Michael Schiavo had said Terri would have wanted every last medical intervention, this would have never been a blip on the radar. If the Schindlers could accept that their daughter, according to all objective evidence, would have never wanted to live like this, it would have never been a blip on the radar.
In fact, this statement is incorrect. There is 100% medical certainity that there is not consciousness associated with a body in any way if there is not a brain.
Assuming the soul, this leaves 2 main possibilites as far as I can see. First, the soul has already left the body, as the person is already effectively dead. Second, the soul is trapped in a brainless husk and unable to move on to where ever it is supposed to go.
As far as the brainless individual is concerned, in the first case it doesn’t matter what happens with the body. In the second case, this sounds quite horrific and cruel and one would think that there would be a responsiblity to restore the natural order of things.
The soul or spirit can take care of itself, what is horrific and cruel is allowing someone to go through the pain and agony of starving to death.
I will answer your other questions in my next post.
I will tell you what I think, my opinion of what is happening, there is no way to know for sure without talking to Terri.
Terri’s spirit has left her body, but remains close to it because of the intense love of her family. She would like to communicate with her family explaining to them it is ok for her to go home to the light. But they can’t hear her. If we lived in a more educated society, a psychic that could communicate with the dead would be asked to try. Maybe more than one, this type of communication is not all that easy.
Love is holding her to earth, her love for her parents, and their love for her. If she could talk to them she might say, “I love you very much, don’t grieve for me, I am not lost, I am fine, when your life is over we will all be together again whole and hardy. So, please let go for now and finish your lives, I will be waiting for you.”
If this message could be delivered to her parents, it would comfort them and reassure them that they could let go of Terri, leaving her to God.
I write this in order to help others, not to prove anything, I am not a scientist and never want to be one.
I feel this post will be torn apart by the worshippers of science and skepticism. Probably with talk of “cold readings”. If they want me to answer they will need to provide a controlled scientific study showing cold readings are valid.
There is great emotional pain going on right now, Terri, and her family are experiencing it. As for body pain, yes, the body can feel pain in the absence of the spirit. What is being done is not defenceable.
Because you never know when the Pope is going to want it back and you risk excommunication and the very fires of Hell if it’s not there when he comes looking for it.
Weird. On one hand, lekatt seems to be saying that allowing Terry to die in the only way that doctors are comfortable with (passively, by removing her feeding tube, as opposed to actively, by giving her a massive dose of morphine or the like) is somehow causing her pain and anguish, and is a horrible form of torture. Therefore, she should remain hooked up to continue on indefinitely in whatever existance she has.
On the other hand, he says that her spirit is still attached to her body because of her husband’s and family’s great love, and that if only someone would listen, that spirit would tell her husband and her family that she’s okay, that all is well, and that they should let her go - she’ll be waiting for them on the other side. Therefore, the doctors should remove the tube and allow her body to die so that her spirit can find release.
LeKat, I know you have your own horse in this race, because of your NDE (Near Death Experience), but please don’t confuse science with religion/spirituality.
You can put all sorts of words in Terry’s soul’s mouth, but that doesn’t make it her voice.
By the way : are you saying that the spirit also needs food?
If not, why would the spirit suffer from starving the body?
I can’t answer your posts, because I don’t intend to defend my opinions. That would be inappropriate.
Since this world is a dual physical reality. It is appropriate for mankind to have two natures. There is the critical thinking, cold logic, assume nothing side, usually represented by science. Then the emotional, intuitional, feeling and faith side, usually represened by religion. It is unfortunate that people tend to choose one over the other. Both are us, and equally valid. We must learn to integrate them before we can gain wisdom in the world.
It is hard for me to explain spiritual things to those who don’t believe in them, as hard as explaining logical things to those embracing religion.
If you really wish an answer from me, ask only one question at a time. Then wait for an answer. I am a slow thinker.
LeKatt, this forum is great debates. I could almost overlook you not providing any support for your position if I knew what it was. What do you think should be done with Terri Shivio?
FWIW I am a Christian and believe we have a soul but I don’t believe it is germain to the topic.
I believe you are serious. I have documented support for a lot of what I post and would be happy to show it. Some times I use “critical thinking” and logic to arrive at what I post, and in these cases you will find me saying, “In my opinion, or I believe.” Please let me know what support you would like to see.
Understanding we are spiritual is very germain to the topic. Knowing it is the spirit that drives the body means there is a chance beyond human knowledge for a miracle. Miracles can take any form to solve problems, not necessarily positive forms from the perspective of us humans.
I could never let Terri starve to death. (Thou shall not kill). As I said in an earlier post, the best solution in my opinion would be to establish communication with Terri so her wishes could be known. But since I don’t think this will happen, the next best thing is for the parents to “let go” of Terri and let her return to the light.
I did volunteer work in hospice for a number of years, those close to death need to hear their families say goodby. They don’t want to leave their loved ones any more than their families want to part with them. So permission should be given for the dying to seek the light. I have seen many times when this permission was given the dying loved one passed on within 12 hours.
I am not a Christian, but try to follow the basic teachings of Jesus because they show the path to the God within, as He stated. I also love Paul’s love chapter.