Did Grace and the Holy Spirit exist before the birth of Jesus?

My take on it is that God does not change, the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is God, Jesus is the way, thus the way does not change. The path was, is and forever is the same and forever open. The instructions for finding the way is given as seek and you will find. This seeking God will result in finding Jesus, who is God with us and in us, And thus receiving the Holy Spirit and continuing Jesus’ ministry on earth. The work of Jesus can be seen in the OT, stuff like raising the dead, the work of the Holy Spirit can also be seen with instruction, spiritual gifts and wisdom. But as for the book, the way it was written, we can see why these are not mentioned directly as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In OT times things were hidden ‘behind the veil’ so the masses could not see or understand it. but after the veil was torn in the Bible, these things are revealed to us as we read. With the revelation in the NT we can see the work of God in the OT.

The doctrine of the trinity has been a subject of disagreement for a long time, to put it mildly. The nature of the holy spirit is never explained in the canon. (Personally, I think it’s more of an expression than a deity. It’s often ambiguous in the bible whether the presence of God is God himself or some kind of messenger or intercessor.) It’s unlikely that most early churches saw Jesus as literally the same being as God. For more information, look up Adoptionism and Filioque.

This. The Christian scriptures say God is love. Theology and doctrine, IMHO, reach their limit pretty quickly in their ability to say for sure just how God’s love will save such persons as Limbo was invented for, but God loves them as much as he loves us, and we who are Christians can trust him to find a way.

This. As the author of Hebrews says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” I would say that Jesus’ death and resurrection happened at a particular place and time, yet are eternal, and are present at all places and times in this universe.

OK, but people who existed in a different part of 4D space didn’t know to take Jesus into their hearts as their personal savior, because in that part of 4D space, Jesus was unknown. So, do they get in if they had good works? If they had faith in God but not Jesus? Do people in other parts of 4D space where Jesus is known become saved if they have faith in God but have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior? (I’m using 4D space to try and translate “present at all places and times in this universe” into something I can try to understand)

I also don’t really understand what it means to say “God is love” and then talk about “God’s love” – it’s like saying “love’s love” or “God’s God”, but this seems like semantic nitpicking, so I’m fine to let that lie. Maybe it’s some archaic usage of “is” or something.

My personal take is: God loves each and every person in this 4D spacetime bubble far more than I love my own son, and nothing in this world is going to stop me from loving that crazy kid. So I’m gonna just trust that he’s got this covered.

I think you’re going to have to accept that neither I nor the author of the epistle (1 John) that “God is love” comes from, was writing as a logician.

So, your answer to the OP is, yes, grace and the Holy Spirit always existed, right?

I think your view of salvation is more expansive than most Christian sects that I know of, but that’s fine by me.

For the Mother God and Daughter of God, I believe in them and I believe why we don’t hear about them is due to Gen 3:16 where God places a man as authority over a woman, And Matt 18:18, whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven (the curse that placed man over women), must apply in the heavens (thus we get a male centric God). This is restored in Christ (Gal 3:28).

Also that Christ has to suffer everything so no one can boast (meaning that no person can claim suffering that Christ did not do), but it is impossible for a male Christ to suffer the greatly increased pains of childbirth - a curse given to women through Eve, thus a female Christ must be needed.

God is one, God is Love, God is indivisible. So wherever there is Love, it is God’s Love and is God. So everyone can be a expression of God on earth by Love, thus Jesus has come in the flesh, as that would be Jesus working through us.

However not all apparently loving acts are really love, as Love come from the heart and intention to love. Paul goes into what Love is in 1 Cor 13 (Love is patient, love is kind. …)

Are we talking about formal denominations, or (to use your word) sects?

The beliefs of sects are of course all over the map. Actual denominations, not so much. I doubt that any significant denominations believe that the Holy Spirit didn’t always exist, or that people who died prior to the time of Christ are destined for hell on account of that failure on their part to be born at the right time. If I’m wrong, feel free to share details.

:slight_smile:

I don’t know the answer but the traditional way of finding it involves at least 2 holy wars and a genocide, so let’s just leave it as a mistery :stuck_out_tongue:

Now you’re killing the fun. :mad: Can’t have religion without schism; can’t have schism without bloodshed, rapine, enslavement, fun; can’t have fun without religion. Break that cycle and the fun goes away. How will we know what suppositions to merrily suppress? We can’t just let heathen and heretical notions pass - why, that leads to POLYTHEISM! (I gesture against the evil eye and diversity.)

Do unverifiable energies and/or beings exist before and/or after an unverifiable event? :confused: Sure, why not. Such ideas give artists material to illustrate and pundits points to ponder, keeping them off the streets so they don’t block traffic. Anything but that!

And caught Hell for it when he got home!

Glad you’re a fellow polytheist. :smiley:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend by using “sects”. I thought it was the appropriate term for the various denominations, offshoots, Synods, etc. Are Missouri Synod Lutherans a different denomination than ELCA Lutherans or LCA Lutherans?

Anyway, and maybe this is off-topic for this thread, but how about those born after the time of Christ? Is there only one way for them to be saved?

The Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis and the act of creation is later attributed to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (to each individually in separate passages).

I don’t know if Grace existed in the same way before as it did after the death of Jesus but there was certainly forgiveness in the OT. The book of Jonah is about God loving and forgiving people even though they hated and killed the people of Israel. Jonah doesn’t forgive them but God does.

How much later? Few hundred years, maybe? It would serve you better to treat the bible as a library, not a book.

I’ll go with holy goats. They’re tangible. And they’ve been around awhile. Graceful, too. Not like gospel-bleaters.

Sure, the bible is a collection of texts produced by different people at different times, but the OP asks about Christians beliefs, and Christians read each of the scriptural texts in the light of the others, and in particular read the OT texts in the light of the NT texts. Thus as an explanation of Christian beliefs it’s perfectly legitimate to point to the NT texts as an elucidation of what Genesis says about the Spirit and creation.

In answer to the OP, I think it’s safe to say that the bulk of Christian traditions hold God to be unchanging and unchangeable. Thus if God is Trinity - Father, Son Spirit - then God is Trinity always and at all times, and there is never a time when God is not Trinity. So not only the Spirit but also the Son existed before the birth of Jesus. The birth of Jesus represents the incarnation of the Son, but not the inception of the Son.

Likewise, becasue God is unchangeable, his Grace has always existed.

That said, I have heard the idea that dropzone says–except I heard they were in “Abraham’s Bosom”* rather than Limbo. But the concept is similar. They waited there until Jesus came and took them to heaven when Jesus descended “to the grave (sheol).”

Still, letting them go to Limbo or Abraham’s Bosom would be an act of Grace.

*The linked Wikpedia article is rather informative. Apparently the idea existed in Judaism, which explains why Jesus used the term in the parable with the rich man and Lazarus.

A problem: an immortal deity can’t die, so offering a godling for sacrifice is meaningless. Crucifixion won’t kill any aspect of the three-in-one deity. Nobody died for the human sins introduced by the very same three-in-one deity. I’m reminded of a shell game.

There is usually a different definition of death then the conventional one in which a immortal deity would have no problem with. Actually many people who have died will be raised to life again. Death is not a ending, but either a sleep or existence in the underworld. So no problem there. Now if you consider death as non-existence/ no longer existing then yes a immortal deity could have some difficulty, but that non-existence state doesn’t seem to be what the Bible talks about and more like some churches looking to make hell look not so bad for those who visit there.